I really have no other words for the catholic church after reading this:
A 9-year-old girl who was carrying twins, allegedly after being raped by her stepfather, underwent an abortion Wednesday despite complaints from Brazil’s Roman Catholic church.
Fatima Maia, director of the public university hospital where the abortion was performed, said the 15-week-old pregnancy posed a serious risk to the 80-pound girl.
“She is very small. Her uterus doesn’t have the ability to hold one, let alone two children,” Maia told the Jornal do Brasil newspaper.
But Marcio Miranda, a lawyer for the Archdiocese of Olinda and Recife in northeastern Brazil, said the girl should have carried the twins to term and had a cesarean section.
As hideous and loathsome as the church’s response is, it doesn’t come as a total surprise — enabling child abuse is all in a day’s work for these sanctimonious creeps.
UPDATE: Thought it couldn’t get any sicker? The BBC has a few more details, which I am too filled with blind red screaming rage to even comment on. Here:
Police believe that the girl at the centre of the case had been sexually abused by her step-father since she was six years old.
He is also suspected of abusing the girl’s physically handicapped older sister who is now 14.
The Catholic Church tried to intervene to prevent the abortion going ahead but the procedure was carried out on Wednesday.
Now a Church spokesman says all those involved, including the child’s mother and the doctors, are to be excommunicated.
GAHHH!!! UPDATE: Money quote:
Gomes Sobrinho, who belongs to the most conservative sector within the Brazilian Roman Catholic Church, said those who have been excommunicated will not be allowed to take communion or to receive other sacraments, although they may yet avoid going to hell.
Drink. I need a drink.
“Un-fucking-believable” Update: Speaks for itself:
Nothing about the little girl.
Calling these people “rotten shit-eating scum” is an insult to all rotten shit-eating scum.
FRIDAY PSA-itude: Right here.
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Abortion is illegal in Brazil. But the law does provide for exemptions in cases of rape and risk to the woman/girl’s life. This heart-breaking case clearly satisfies at least one of those conditions and maybe the other as well.
The fucking church excommunicated the girl’s mother and the doctors.
They take their patriarchy real serious in the Brazilian Roman Catlick Church, don’t they?
fern hill – This story made me want to puke. Those sick fuckers in the catholic “church” are as bad as the scumbag who raped her.
The fucking church excommunicated the mother and doctors? What scum.
Hopefully this story gets a lot of play — it’s time people knew about the true rot in the “one true church”.
And these assholes think that because I’m gay and an atheist I have no morals.
I don’t want their fucked up morals.
Bruce – Exactly. I consider it a compliment of the highest order that scum-ridden organized criminals like the catholic church consider the people I’m onside with to be morally bankrupt heathens. We must be doing something right.
True rot it is. And what of the step father? Absolutely f*cking nothing. The institutionalized patriarchy of the church is absolutely disgusting.
What is the problem with the media? “Allegedly” raped his 9 year old step-daughter? A man who forces a nine-year-old girl to have sex with him is not an “alleged” rapist, he is a violent scum pedophile and a rapist.
Beijing – Yeah, was the step-father excommunicated? Of course not! They probably let him enter the priesthood, he’s got the right background for it. SCUM!
deBeauxOs – I noticed that right off and thought WTF? Allegedly?? There can be little doubt that a pregnant 9-year-old didn’t get that way of her own volition. But on second thought, there may be legal reasons for using the word “allegedly” — innocent til proven and all that.
JJ — I noticed the “allegedly” as well. What a fun way to drive myself nuts.
It’s shit like this that caused me to run — not walk — from church, and ultimately reject religion. I hope that kid gets a lot of love and support. Not from the church. And I hope they lock up the father and throw away the key. Far, far away. Asshat.
It’s really hard to be coherent and non-rageful in this. The stupid — it burns.
Michelle – When I first saw the headline, it was wrong on so many different levels I kind of went into shock for a few seconds. 9 year old? Raped? Allegedly??? Twins? Church complains about the abortion?!?? Tilt. Overload.
It’s very difficult to be coherent about this, child abuse, misogyny, it’s all there and so blatant. Ack. I need to take a walk.
You know… I’ve never been officially removed from the Catholic “roster”. Anyone know of a way I can be “sympathetically” excommunicated? The idea that I’ve associated with this organisation, even under the duress of childhood religion, kind of puts me off. I’m almost coherent in my own post, but I’m sure I devolve into rocking in the corner, banging my head against the wall:
http://atheistmidwife.wordpress.com
I’m almost tempted to send this to my mother in law, just to see how she’ll resolve the cognitive dissonance of what she believes and really happens.
Anyone want to brave the muck and let us know what ghod’s handmaiden over at BBW says to excuse her church’s behavior?
Michelle – I read your post, well done. I am still far too angry to delve into this story any deeper. I gave it a couple of shots and found I was pounding the keyboard so hard that the keys were about to get loose and fly off.
I would love to see how hard-core catholics defend this.
Do you remember around the year 2000, the Vatican and the Pope decided that the Church should ask forgiveness for its errors.
It asked forgiveness from Jews, Muslims, people of conquered lands (think of Latin America).
So they thought they’d made a clean breast of it.
But noooooooooo! They never asked the WOMEN for forgiveness for the millenia of their subservience and the perpetuating of a patriarchal culture.
Women are still relegated to a low position in the Church’s mind and it continues today.
The article,to which this is attached as a comment, proves my point.
Chimera – Already done. I anxiously await the response.
No holding your breath while waiting for an answer, JJ — not unless you look good in blue…
Hell, I might even decide to break my promise to myself and wander over there for awhile to watch the fun….
Torontonian – The catholic “church” is an extremely medieval and patriarchal (and I don’t use that word lightly) organization that gives not one shit about women, and would never even consider asking their forgiveness for anything. About as much chance of that as there is that they’d ask gay people for their forgiveness.
Chimera – I want to see how anyone can defend such vile disgusting conduct. I really, really want to see it. I’ll wait.
I’m seriously starting to consider the Catholic Church to be a criminal terrorist organization and anyone who professes to agree with everything it does to be criminals and terrorists.
I cannot — I really can’t — believe that that blue bitch has the fucking nerve to defend what the priests did over the harm done to that girl!
Somebody get me a stack of firewood to chew into kindling? It’ll save JJ the effort of chopping it for the next year and I won’t need to get blood all over the place from going for the throats of the blackrobes…
Chimera – Wow. Wow. My mind is officially BLOWN.
George Carlin was so right: “If you’re pre-born you’re fine, if you’re pre-school you’re fucked.”
I know I’m not up on my female anatomy (being a guy), but how the hell does a girl start puberty (and therefore become fertile) at 9?
And yes, the BCC are a bunch of navel-gazing fuckheads with a serious case of opto-rectalitis.
Oh, and the step-father needs to be raped with his own dick. See how HE likes it.
Asswipe.
To add to the outrage, some of the stories indicate the Church thought about bringing a lawsuit or bring murder charges against the mother (I’m not sure what that means–can the Church itself bring charges, what would be the terms of a suit?).
Chimera, I’m just going to come right out and say this: When you look back in history, the Catholic church is the original al-Qaeda. Think about it.
JAB – Generally, girls go into puberty at 11 or 12. 9 is very young. However, she’s been sexually abused for years, and from what I’ve read, that can be a factor in bringing on early puberty
Agghh, it’s so sick and sad.
The rapist should be shot and pissed on.
fredtopeka – I briefly noticed that in one of the stories and just thought “Whaaa…?” A murder charge against the mother? For procuring an abortion I guess, since it’s illegal in Brazil. Fortunately judges are allowed to supercede the law in cases of rape or danger to the mother’s health, and in this case both situations applied.
Bruce – All fundamentalists share the same backward ignorance, same misogyny, same bigotry, same patriarchy. Sick, medieval culture.
Speaking of bigotry — how long before someone comes out and calls all these stories “anti-catholic bigotry”? I give it half a day.
The weirdest thing of all is, after scouring right wing blogs, FD, the blogging tories, etc., I haven’t found one Canadian right wing blog that’s covered this story. Not one. Not even lifeshite, and they ALWAYS cover stories about abortion and the church. The silence is deafening.
I suppose the silence is deafening because it’s too disgusting even for them.
Anti Catholic bigotry? Come on, that’s been going on for eons if you ask them. You can hardly expect less than martyrdom from an organization whose symbol of faith is a dude nailed to a cross.
Bruce – You’re right when you make the comparison with al qaeda.
They terrorized Africans by telling them that if they used condoms they’d go to HELL — of course, HIV went out of control, because the church is too delusional to realize that even though they might be able to stop the use of condoms, they can’t stop human nature. That caused the deaths of millions: immoral and despicable.
And that’s just a recent example. The further you go back in history, the more there is.
Yet, they’re the martyrs
I remember this same thing happening in Nicaraugua a few years ago. A local bishop threatened to excommunicate anyone involved in providing an abortion to an 11-year-old who had been raped. In response, someone put up a website inviting Catholics to sign up for excommunication if the bishop went ahead with his threat. Within days, 26,000+ willing Catholics put their names on the list and the bishop quietly backed down. I guess it would have really pissed off the Vatican
As a lapsed Catholic,I checked into what one has to do to get excommunicated and it turns out there about 9 things you can do to get the boot, but all but a few apply to clergy. Interestingly, procuring or helping some procure an abortion is on the list, but homicide isn’t. This is how twisted the Catholic church is.
I forgot to mention that of all the seven reason clergy can be excommnicated, diddling little boys and girls isn’t on the list.
No surprise there I guess.
Calgal – I recall that story from Nicaragua too. More medieval, pig-ignorant bullshit that got deservedly smacked down.
Speaking of excommunication, I’ve been seeing tons of news items on this story, and I’m amazed at the number of catholics who are saying this is the final straw that will make them leave the church. Quite a few are even talking about requesting to be excommunicated.
It’s no wonder that conservative catholic sites like lifesite aren’t covering this story. They’ve been through PR disasters before, they know how bad this looks. Fucking hypocrites, they make me want to puke.
“Chimera, I’m just going to come right out and say this: When you look back in history, the Catholic church is the original al-Qaeda. Think about it.”
I’m way ahead of you, Bruce. The Crusades were a prime example of the Church’s notion of brotherly love. Three major religions plus a scattering of Pagan religions managed to live peacefully side by side in Jerusalem until Odo de Lagery decided he wanted his name to go down in history so he posted a bounty on non-Christians and paid off in admittance to heaven and forgiveness for all sins, past, present, and future. Kill a Muslim, win a seat in the heavenly Dress Circle.
Yeah, I’m familiar with it.
Oh…de Lagery is also known as Pope Urban II.
“The rapist should be shot and pissed on.”
Ditto for the church officials and all their little toadies, eh? Bastards.
You can rape altar boys and not get excommunicated.
They ‘the Holy Catholic Pack of Boy Fondlers’ say abortion is permissible when the woman’s life is in danger or rape. This was frigging rape. A child cannot consent, so it is rape. And tell me how a little girl is going to carry twins to term and not have her life endangered?
“The rapist should be shot and pissed on.”
Should be other way round. When I read this story, the first thing I thought of was what would SUZY ALLCAPS ‘think’. She never disappoints. And Ken — the woman hater. Bleh…
chimera
Ditto for any depraved maniac who thinks the church’s conduct in this is in any way defensible.
I bet it’s because you occasionally have to resort to homicide to smite the infidel. Just ask Torquemada.
Ooh! Can I steal that one? Maybe I can attract Bill Donohue’s attention with it…
There’s a reason I started using the term “forced birthers” instead of “pro life” a while back.
… and it’s stories like this which show us the ugly, hypocritical nastiness of that moralizing ideology.
Anja
Excommunicated, are you kidding? I think that gets you some kind of medal.
Apparently not — it’s only if the woman’s life is endangered, they don’t care about rape. And the church (and their apologists) are claiming that her life wasn’t in danger. Go figure.
She wouldn’t. Had the pregnancy continued for another month, the most likely scenario would have been perforation of her uterus which she may or may not have survived, depending on how fast they could get her to a hospital, whether infection set in, etc. (She was already in pain — that’s how they found out she was pregnant, she was taken to the hospital with stomach pain.)
That’s basically what the church wanted — for the girl to continue the pregnancy until her uterus exploded, then get an emergency c-section to try and save the fetuses. Nice, huh?
While I’d like to add something to this linching I’ve got nothing that can compare to JJs rage. It really makes you want to burn some Bishops in effigy. I love a bon fire!
SQ – I forgot to say, “not necessarily in that order”.
I thought that even she might have a glimmer of compassion and recognize that this is a situation where abortion is called for. But nope — she’s as much an absolutist about it as her idiotic church. Zero compassion for anything but the fetus.
It’s funny. I didn’t used to think SUZANNE was insane.
JAB
Anti-catholic bigotry!!!
Seriously, how long til we start seeing this story referred to as anti-catholic bigotry? I give it 48 hours.
Since I’ve been banned from BBW I have not gone back. I do not want suzzy seeing my internetId visiting her site – I don’t want her to have that pleasure…. but (you knew it was coming) – I’m dying to know what is being said by her and that fuckwad “ken”!!
The post above shows one response by suzanne – is that all she’s “said” on this matter? And is there nothing from Ken?
I’ve attempted to engage some catholics at neil mckenty’s blog about this story… we’ll see how they feel about it.
There appears to be no end to the RCC church’s free-fall into the lowest depths of human excriment…
MgS
If any story illustrates that, it’s this one. They wanted that little girl to carry the pregnancy to the point where the physical trauma was so unacceptable that her body started literally coming apart.
And I’m not even talking about the psychological trauma this kid has already been through and would continue to go through had she been forced to carry the pregnancy.
It doesn’t get any more “forced-birth” than that.
balb: “It’s funny. I didn’t used to think SUZANNE was insane.”
That IS funny… because it took me all of about 2 minutes to realize that she is both a cunt AND insane. (and ZERO fun, and a horrible parent, and scientifically illiterate, and on and on and on….)
GAB
It sure makes you want to burn something.
I tend to cut moderate religious people a little slack, but I have no time for these opus dei hair-shirt punishment freaks.
balb
Neither did I. Dogmatic, definitely, delusional for sure, and a committed propagandist, but not completely insane. I thought even she would recognize the wrongness of the church’s behaviour in this situation.
100% pure unadulterated batshit.
Her utter inability to distinguish between the notion of a nine year old girl, raped and pregnant, and a three month old fetus is nothing short of sociopathic. It’s almost irrelevant that her monomania is about foetuses. She’s scary: I begin to understand how these people can kill.
They wanted that little girl to carry the pregnancy to the point where the physical trauma was so unacceptable that her body started literally coming apart.
Now there’s a question: what are the odds that if the pregnancy were to go to term, that either the little girl or the baby or both would have come out of it dead? I really don’t know the answer, but I’d be guessing the chances of that are pretty high even with surgical intervention.
Culture of life, man.
I tend to cut moderate religious people a little slack
Gee, thanks.
Joe Agnost
Okay Joe, what did you do to get banned? Insult Ken?
That comment isn’t all she’s said about it, it was just the first thing. However, her additional comments were just an elaboration of the same point, embellished with some attempts to deflect attention from the issue: like telling me I’m okay with 3-trimester babies getting stabbed in the head(?), bitching about how feminists *always* use stories like this against anti-choicers (no fucking kidding), how she’s against violence and I’m for violence, blah blah yada yada. A lot of bullshit just to dress up the fact that she thinks the church’s position was perfectly okay.
As for Ken, I don’t know, I haven’t been back there, but I suspect Ken wouldn’t have anything worthwhile to add.
I just blogged at our place about the fucker who excommunicated the girl’s mother and doctors. Dig it: The girl herself was not excommunicated because she is TOO YOUNG.
As I said in the blog post: I got nuthin’.
Her utter inability to distinguish between the notion of a nine year old girl, raped and pregnant, and a three month old fetus is nothing short of sociopathic. It’s almost irrelevant that her monomania is about foetuses. She’s scary: I begin to understand how these people can kill.
Indeed, which is why there can be no “debate” with these idiots. They are deluded and dangerous. They should be ignored if possible and ridiculed if needed. But never engaged, since even engaging them give their psychosis a whiff of respectability.
And I’m adding this to the long list of reasons I despise organized religion, especially the Catholic Church. They are nothing more than a criminal gang of sexual deviants trying to scare people into supporting them.
If Lifesite hasn’t covered this, it’s only because they haven’t gotten around to it yet.
Same thing happened in Colombia in 2006, with the same result.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2006/aug/06083002.html. That time though, as the rapist wasn’t her father, both parents were excommunicated.
“Okay Joe, what did you do to get banned? Insult Ken?”
I don’t know for sure since I just left and didn’t go back (after I couldn’t post a comment – because I was ‘banned’).
But – I’m pretty sure it was because I called Ken an in-the-closet gay man. I wasn’t even rude about – I didn’t mean it in the schoolyard (insulting) manner. I simply pointed out that Ken was obsessed with all things gay (it kills me when he types, completely seriously, that public schools are FORCING our youth to be gay! The “man” is such a FOOL!).
Anyway – I think that’s why I was banned…. you can’t be allowed to hurt suzanne’s boyfriend’s (ken) feelings!
balb
I agree. I can understand that “pro-lifers” would rather abortions didn’t happen — I think most people would rather abortions didn’t have to happen, but sometimes they do, and this is one case where it’s not even a matter of convenience, or lack of resources, or all the other reasons they think are so, um, “frivolous”. This is a case where any thinking person, regardless of their ideological stripe, should be able to see that abortion is the most compassionate solution for this little girl.
To be more compassionate towards a 3 or 4-month fetus than the girl carrying it is completely heartless, unjust and immoral.
To be more compassionate towards a 3 or 4-month fetus than the girl carrying it is completely heartless, unjust and immoral.
Seriously. And again, since it appears that both she and the fetuses would have ended up dead had the pregnancy not been terminated when it was, I don’t understand how forcing her to carry it to term is supposed to have saved anyone’s life. Or, is the “pro-life” position not really about that at all? Hmm.
Chet
There were 2 babies — twins
That’s one of the reasons it was imperative to terminate the pregnancy — her uterus was too small even to hold one, let alone two.
From what I’ve read, the odds are fairly high that all 3 would have died had she been forced to carry the pregnancy. Probably in about a month, her uterus would have perforated, which would leave the fetuses “floating loose in a sea of the 9-year-old’s blood” (as a commenter at pharyngula put it). Add to that the potential for infection, on top of the unacceptable physical trauma, and the prognosis for this pregnancy was terrible.
Sorry, that was poorly worded. What I mean is, I don’t lump all religious people together with fundies. I actually try not to offend moderate religious people (see my comments on “Piss Christ” a few days ago). I figure “Whatever floats your boat” — it’s just the ones who try to impose it on others that I can’t abide.
What I mean is, I don’t lump all religious people together with fundies.
I know, I was just jerking your chain. Inappropriate humour on my part, really; this whole story is no joking matter.
Agh, I should have said “pulling your leg.” What the hell is wrong with my wording today?
fern hill
Interesting. I wonder if they’ll excommunicate her later, or if she can get out of it by confessing. Nah — they couldn’t possibly heap any more shit on this girl than she’s already had to take… could they?
Mike
Exactly, there’s little point in having a discussion with people who are so cemented in their ideology that they refuse to see any other possibilities. There’s a Right Way and a Wrong Way, and that’s that. How on earth do you reason with that kind of closed mind? And this story is a perfect example.
RB – Wow, interesting. They really are shameless. I guess you’re right, they don’t see anything wrong about the church’s conduct, they just haven’t gotten around to covering the story yet. Sick!
Joe –
Poor Joe, that doesn’t seem like a capital (banning) offense to me. I’ve said similar things myself and I haven’t been banned (although my comment about Ken being fixed up by a little rough trade was deleted).
Why don’t you just unplug your ethernet for a few hours and go back there when it cycles you a new IP? That’d get her goat
Chet
Their position is a little convoluted.
My understanding is that if the doctors could somehow deliver the fetuses intact, and then they died the second they were out of the uterus because they were too premature, that would be okay with the church. But I’m not even 100% positive if they all even agree with that, because there was recently a case of “induced early deliveries” at a catholic hospital where lifesite was freaking out and calling it “abortion”. So who knows.
I think sometimes being a catholic means living with a lot of contradictions.
One of the things that’s missing from this discussion is the concept of “God’s Will”. When Chet says I don’t understand how forcing her to carry it to term is supposed to have saved anyone’s life, like everyone here he’s thinking in rational, human terms, and of course the potential for a horrible outcome doesn’t make sense — to us.
But factor in God’s Will and all becomes clear. If the mother and twins all die, well that’s just what God wanted, for His Own inscrutable reasons. The abusive step-father? Part of God’s Plan. Remember, HE is all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful, and His Plans are beyond our comprehension. We can only trust in His Love for us, and be certain that if we follow His Plan, we will be rewarded with everlasting life… OK, I’m making myself ill.
But you get the idea. For the true believer everything happens for the exact same reason, and they (and by extension, all the rest of us) aren’t allowed to question God’s decision.
Those people who were excommunicated? At least partly that’s because they went against God’s Will, but in a curious twist, the Church isn’t willing to wait for God to punish them, no, it’s arrogated to itself the power to start the punishment early. Which, obviously, is all part of God’s plan too. And now my head hurts.
Well put North of 49… you’re definitely on to something there.
JJ: I don’t want to return (for obvious reasons) to BBW… although I must say that “getting her goat” does sound appealing!
North of 49
Bingo! Actually the draft of my last response to Chet included something about “God’s Will” but I somehow deleted it, so thanks for bringing that up. It’s actually a very important point in understanding the seemingly inexplicable things they do.
Pain and suffering are considered to be good things, so the catholic church loves dishing them out. They’ve also convinced the recipients of the pain that they’re somehow redeemed by it, maybe because it mirrors Christ’s suffering on the cross. That’s one of the reasons why they’re such punishment freaks.
Joe
Meh. To tell you the truth, I’m starting to wonder if there’s any point in going there at all, even just to call her on her BS. She’s clearly nuts, and so probably are most of her readers.
“I’m starting to wonder if there’s any point in going there at all”
Yup. It was (is?) a rich source of comedy though! At least it had that going for it!
JoeyA: If you want some really scary shit, go to ‘Ken’s’ website. I know I am now glad I don’t live in Ontario.
You know what hemming? I ~do~ go to Ken’s website for a look at his latest batshittery… it’s truly scary. I don’t comment or anything, I just have a QUICK look and then leave. It’s a disgusting habit of mine, one I’m ashamed to admit.
Anyone want an example of his attitude towards feminism and public schools?? It is really an amazing look into how completely f-ed up these people truly are:
http://ruralrite.blogspot.com/
Then scroll down to the Thursday, January 22, 2009 entry!
****
I love your avatar BTW – I have a lovely chocolate lab at home, at he looks just like your pic!
It’s horrible that a 9 year old girl (or any girl, for that matter) had to go through this. Now, let us imagine this particular incident occurring in a Muslim country, say Afghanistan. What do you think the outcome would be? What happens in Muslim countries when a women is raped? Or when there is adultery?
So hippie, have you ever condemned what goes on in Muslim countries with as much vigour as you condemn the Catholic Church? It seems that you’re more interested in Catholic bashing than showing concern for all women.
Stan: “It seems that you’re more interested in Catholic bashing than showing concern for all women.”
How astute of you Stan – you must have spent precious seconds investigating JJ’s history to come to this conclusion! (roll eyes)
As this story has NOTHING to do with Islam I don’t see your comment as being relevant… it’s good to see that you have no excuse for the RCC though – well other than the old “you don’t give islam a hard time – why don’t you leave us alone” BS that christians have been trotting out forever. Sad…
Stan, go back to SUZANNEISTAN where you belong.
Stan
Here ya go, freak.
“you must have spent precious seconds investigating JJ’s history to come to this conclusion! (roll eyes)”
No doubt I’ll be directed to the many, many posts condemning the stoning or whipping of women in Muslim countries.
This may not be a post about Islam, but I think it should be noted that excommunication means little more than not being able to partake in communion, whereas Islam has a different idea of suitable punishment.
I’m not saying “why don’t you leave us alone.” However, if you are truly interested in the way girls and women are treated, perhaps it’s time to look beyond the Catholic Church.
Stan: “excommunication means little more than not being able to partake in communion…”
Newsflash to Stan: They ACTIVELY tried to stop the abortion! They tried their hardest to FORCE this little 9 year old (raped) girl to carry her fetuses to term – even though medical experts said she’d likely DIE in such a scenario!!
Yeah – that’s a slap on the wrist eh? Man, are your lot sick…
And yes – Islam is fucked up too! Is that what you were looking for?
Ooooh, one whole post. I’m impressed. But nothing on stoning, beheadings, clitorectomies? Perhaps those things don’t bother you as much as excommunication?
Stan: “have you ever condemned what goes on in Muslim countries with as much vigour as you condemn the Catholic Church?”
And then when JJ responded with the appropriate link he responds with:
“Ooooh, one whole post. I’m impressed.”
What a total fucking tool! She answered your question, and showed that you were WRONG in you assertion that she DOESN’T condemn muslims… and you respond with “ooooh, one whole post.”… Perhaps you should have asked for more than one example – but you didn’t.
Be gone troll.
Shorter Stan: “B-b-but…MUSLIMS! BLARGH! YAHHHH!! BOOGADY-BOOGADY-BOOGADY BLARGH! LEAVE THE CHRISTIANS ALOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEE!!!!!” *suicide bombs an abortion clinic*
So Stan, I take it this means that you want women who have abortions to be stoned to death, like they do in Muslim countries?
Thanks for proving my earlier point about the eerie similarities between our theocrats and theirs.
“I take it this means that you want women who have abortions to be stoned to death, like they do in Muslim countries?”
Not at all. Just questioning why hippie and others don’t feel that Muslin treatment of women is as important as excommunication.
“It’s horrible that a 9 year old girl (or any girl, for that matter) had to go through this.”
That’s the last, and only, relevant observation Stan has made in this thread.
Stan: “Just questioning why hippie and others don’t feel that Muslin treatment of women is as important as excommunication.”
I know that you’re just a troll and all…. but where the hell did you get THAT conclusion from?
1. This story is NOT about “excommunication”, it is much more than that (like forcing a 9 year old to breed!).
2. When has there been even the slightest implication that JJ, or anyone here, thinks the muslim treatment of women is not as important as “excommunication”??
So, you’re not just a troll – you’re also deluded. Nice combo!
Stan, you’re a complete asshole, you know that?
No one here approves of the things you’re criticizing. Everyone here has and will continue to condemn them.
But you know what? If I’m complaining about the weather being unpleasant I don’t at the same time bring up every other time I didn’t like the weather. When I condemn this action by the Catholic Church I don’t bring up every single other disgusting, evil, reprehensible thing they’ve done. It would take the rest of my life.
So when I call you an asshole, Stan, rest assured it’s just for what you’ve done here. Not for every other time you’ve been an asshole in your pitiful excuse for a life.
Get fucked.
It’s inconceivable to imagine anyone would think twice about a medical procedure to remove the rape fetuses of a 9-year old child. A child. I know the pro-lifeers care about the “unborn children”, but what about the victim here? She is a “born child” who was raped in innocence. The church’s stand is unconscionable.
Force is a strong word…was the Bishop in the hospital fighting with the doctor and mother, or did he phone/write to those involved to say that abortion is against church doctrine because it’s considered to be murder? Gee, the article doesn’t say. Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but the girl actually had the abortion, didn’t she? She wasn’t forced to breed. The rapist step father has been charged. Common sense, and Brazillian law, have been applied.
“When has there been even the slightest implication that JJ, or anyone here, thinks the muslim treatment of women is not as important as “excommunication”??”
Slightest implication? How about the number of anti-Catholic posts vs. the number of anti-Muslim posts? Or the biggoted commentary? This leads to the conclusion that things like stoning women for adultary and whipping rape victims are not as “bad” as anything the Catholic Church is doing.
Wait wait wait wait waitaminit…something just tweaked my synapses…
“Interestingly, procuring or helping some procure an abortion is on the list, but homicide isn’t.”
True? Really? Where’s that list?
If homicide is not actionable but abortion is, then how can abortion be homicide? As in “killing?”
Stan –
Where did I ever say that?
Look dude, you asked me if I’d ever posted about “Muslim treatment of women”, I gave one up. Now you’re trying to shift the goalposts. Sorry, it don’t work that way around here.
“One” vs. how may anti-Catholic posts? The impression is that Catholics are bad, bad, BAD, but things that Muslims do…well, not so much.
Joe Agnost
That’s considered a GOOD thing to these people, Joe.
RB – This is standard goalpost-shifting procedure: “But-but-but Muslims are so much worse!!!” As if that somehow makes it all okay what the church has tried to do to this little girl. Uh-uh. Religion is in a pretty sad state if Muslim extremism has become the measuring stick by which all other religious abuse of women is measured.
Gee Stan, do you think that the number of Catholic posts might be because they have a lot more influence in the US and Canada than Muslims?
Also, feminists and liberals have been talking about women in other countries far longer than others. We complained about the Taliban and Saudi Arabia long before 9/11. We complain about all mistreatment of women, but because the Catholic Church is one of the big problems for women here (because of the inherent patriarchal structure and their work against abortion and contraception), they do come up more. The fact that Catholics are also among the leaders working against gay rights and embryonic research doesn’t help. Really do you talk about what happens in other countries more than your own?
Stan
If that’s “the impression” then I’m sorry to say “the impression” is wrong. But whatever turns your crank.
As an aside, I think that Catholics believe an abortion is worse than the murder of a person because of original sin. Since the fetus has not been baptized they will go to hell (although there is an argument there–this idea also implies that everyone born before Jesus would go to hell, including people like Moses), while someone who has been born has had an opportunity to be baptized. It’s a very weird concept.
fredtopeka
That’s stating the obvious point that people like Stan don’t get for some reason. We write about what we know, that which is closest.
Really, the whole Muslim thing, in this context, is such a red herring that it’s not even worth discussing. It’s goalpost shifting, plain and simple. Deflection. “Look over here, there’s someone even worse!” No shit — and that has exactly what to do with the topic at hand?
fredtopeka – Ah, that explains the obsession with delivering the fetus intact, even if it’s too preemie to survive. They could theoretically have a priest there waiting to baptize it the second it’s born.
I thought unbaptized babies went to purgatory? No? Or do they even have purgatory any more? It’s been awhile…
Exactly. That’s why all this sudden concern on the Right for women’s rights in Muslim countries is highly suspect. The only reason they bring it up at all is to feed the stereotype of all Muslims as incurably violent reprobates worthy only of being shoved into Adam Yoshida’s macrowaves.
I thought I heard a while back that they were mulling over doing away with either purgatory or limbo. I’d go find a link to the relevant story, but I don’t want Weirdpress eating any more of my comments.
“Really do you talk about what happens in other countries more than your own?”
“We write about what we know, that which is closest.”
Right…Brazil.
As for goal post shifting, it’s necessary, since you are playing a game against an imaginary opposition: “That Catholic Church is so powerful and so evil that, that…” it couldn’t even stop this abortion.
Stan
Right… western religions, of which catholicism happens to be one. Are you getting it now?
You are getting it. Hold that thought.
Yeah, I get: there is no arguing with irrational hatred.
Have a nice day, Stan
Umm Stan, the Catholics in the US have the same ideals as those in Brazil since both are governed by the Pope. We worry and talk about the Catholics in Brazil because their views are the same views as US Catholics and since the Catholic Church is the largest single church in the US (there are more total Protestants–many of the Evangelicals have similar views) and therefore there is a possibility that this type of thing could happen here. On the other hand, Muslims have virtually no power in the US, so there is no chance that we have to worry about the Taliban here.
In terms of Limbo and Purgatory, I know only a little (I don’t know the view of the Papacy for example). There’s nothing about it in the Bible, so some Christians believe in them and others don’t; the idea of original sin is also not universal among Christians.
Well, there’s certainly no arguing with your irrational hatred of Muslims, Stan.
And JJ, you might want to delete one of those copies that you dug out of spam purgatory and delete the linkless version of the same.
Dear Stan:
The impression is that Catholics are bad, bad, BAD, but things that Muslims do…well, not so much.
You seem, strangely, unable to grasp the continuously made point that one can be against an institution, but not against its adherents. I am a proud anti-Catholic. And Anti-Islam. And anti-Scientology. I do not, however, dislike most Christians, most Muslims or even most Scientologists (except Tom Cruise, he freaking insane).
Most adherents to religion – any religion – would not advocate of apologize for such barbarity. Most American and European Catholics are pro-choice, not anti-gay and would find this kind of medieval behaviour appalling. Most Muslims, including a large number of scholars and Imams, condemned 9-11 and 3-11 and 7-7. Most of them find the barbarity committed in the name of their religion disgusting.
Most people, regardless of the religion the profess, are good decent people. Including Catholics and Muslims.
It isn’t “Catholics” that are “bad, bad, bad” its the institution of the Catholic Church that stinks the entire earth with the stench of evil. Its the organizations like the Muslim Brotherhood and the institutions of Saudi Wahabism that are slavering monsters.
The Catholic Church in Brazil raped that child’s psyche and damaged that child as much or more than the rapist pig that impregnated her.
I will wake up a happy man when it is wiped from the face of the earth and the millions of good people who call themselves “Catholics” continue being good people, but think for themselves.
fredtopeka –
Stan knows good and damn well why I’m grinding the catholic church’s gears. The “But Muslims Shariah Law stonings beheadings” thing is the rhetoric of last resort. The fact that Muslim fundamentalists are also capable of great evil doesn’t change this story, or make the church’s conduct any more excusable. The church is in sad straits indeed if Islamic fundamentalism is what they’re using as a moral yardstick these days.
Gotta love the adroitness of that goalpost-shifting, though. Stan’s obviously used to finding himself on the losing side of arguments
JAB
It’s not even hate as much as they provide a convenient excuse for the transgressions of his own church (or so he seems to think).
My “hate” is hardly irrational — I have no more contempt for his misogynist religious institution than I have for any of the other misogynist religious institutions that poison the world. This one’s just closer to home.
Mike – How long did I say it would be before someone started whining about “anti-catholic bigotry”? 12 to 48 hours? And right on schedule, Stan shows up 3 hours later, which I guess gives him a “hang time” of minus 9 hours — ouch! That’s terrible!
Right. A lot of catholics are aghast at this story, I’ve even seen quite a few (posting online about it) who speak of leaving the church. This is the last straw for some of the moderates.
Well said. The fundamentalists in any religion are the ones who poison it, not the regular run of the mill people who belong to a particular faith. It’s not regular catholics who are demanding that this little girl risk her life rather than have an abortion, and it’s not regular muslims who insist women shouldn’t drive or go to school. It’s the fundie whackjobs. People like Stan would do better to pick up the garbage in their own back yard than point to someone else who might have even more garbage in their back yard.
Good morrow, all!
Fundamentalist religionists of all stripes say that the school system condones, and thus promotes, abortion and homosexuality.
Would it not then be fair to say that the fundies of all stripes condone, and thus promote, sexual abuse of all kinds?
Is it not true that the states with the most rock-ribbed fundamentalist bases are ALSO the states with the highest rates of obesity (gluttony) divorce (adultery) and teenage pregnancy (fornication), not to mention sexual abuse within families (incest) AND the consumption of porn (well, there’s no accounting for taste in any event)
Jesus reserved his most scathing criticisms for the biggest and most blatant hypocrites of his time. I wonder what he would say to his current rabid followers, who put the “mental” into fundamental. CTZen
Cornelius
I think Jesus would be very disappointed by some of what’s done in his name. No, wait, not disappointed — I think he’d be kicking some ass. (Or maybe that’s just Old Testament behaviour.)
As a former Catholic ex of mine used to say, one of the first things Jesus would say is “They don’t even keep Kosher!”
Christianity – Celebrating 2000 years of picking the parts of the Old Testament they like and imposing them on non-Christians.
Looks like you’ll have to add another “thought it couldn’t get any sicker” update to this post:
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/03/07/catholic-abortion.html
Yes, that’s right, the Vatican fully supports the Brazilian bishops. Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re says (among other gems):
“Life must always be protected.”
Unless you’re a nine-year-old rape victim, of course. Then we could care less if your uterus gets perforated and you bleed to death.
So I wonder when they’re going to get around to excommunicating the roughly 90% of Catholic politicians in Canada who are pro-choice, many of whom are directly involved in funding abortions? And when they’re going to dig up Pierre Trudeau’s and Rene Levesque’s bodies and leave them by the side of the road? And all the Catholic doctors and nurses performing them?
They have the nerve to do this to powerless people, but they’re not going to piss off the ones in North America and Europe who might fight back.
actually rb, the men in gowns and slippers have directly threatened canadian politicians with excommunication on the basis of abortion and same sex marriage issues. martin, chretien and others, to their credit, stood by their constituencies rather than succumbing to the church’s blackmail.
Threatened it – usually the asshole bishop in Calgary. But never had the nerve to follow through.
The Church only attacks the weak and defenseless. Believe me, if the president or prime minister of Brazil (forget which they have) brings in a law allowing abortions, he’s not getting excommunicated. Guaranteed.
I pretty much agree with RB on this. The church won’t pick a fight it cannot hope to win, and picking a fight with 90% of a population is a definite loser!
The church does not want to fight with the little, anonymous guy. They’d expend way too much time and energy doing that. They want to fight — and be seen to win — against an important public official. The leader of all those anonymous guys.
A chess player doesn’t bother to checkmate a pawn. He goes straight for his opponent’s king.
Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think the previous Pope would’ve allowed the Vatican to support an excommunication in a case like this. To me, such ignorance and intransigence signals a step back in time, a step back that reflects the will and disposition of right-wing radical (and bloodthirsty) Catholics like Mel Gibson.
I wouldn’t bet on that, brebis. As Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Ratzinger was essentially John Paul’s Inquisitor.
It is much easier for the Catholic church to excommunicate people in South America than it is in North America. It is a different church there, one of the last places on earth where the clergy still have a cold, hard grip on the people. The church knows the limits to which it can go to in North America, such as letting that clergy like that mean-spirited little weasel bishop Henry pound his chest and threathen Catholic politicians who are pro-choice. As Reality Bites pointed out, he is gutless and has never followed through on his threats, although once he managed to get a Medicine Hat church to cancel the wedding of a Planned Parenthood worker. Stupid jerk.
eh, what do I know, I can’t even name the seven sacraments, if that’s how many there are.
Or right-wing radical, bloodthirsty Catholics like Bill Donohue.
RB
Cute!
Well, exactly. Like all bullies, they only pick targets they know they can win against. There’s entire organizations of moderate catholics (ie. Catholics for Choice) that they should be excommunicating (unless of course they’re hypocrites), but they don’t want to lose all those tithing Catholics.
VisionAries – Thanks for the link, interesting comments thread there.
A couple of things stand out now that I’ve calmed down a little:
(1) They’re saying that child rape is a lesser crime than abortion (the step father hasn’t been excommunicated, or even really denounced by the looks of things)
(2) This quote: “When a human law is against the law of God, that law has no value.” As one commenter at CBC put it, that’s basically a declaration of war against secular democratically elected governments. How is that different from Sharia Law again?
This whole episode has been very telling, not just about the church’s hierarchy, but those who’d support its extremist views.
lulu
And also responsible for covering up the sex abuse scandals — getting priests moved to other parishes instead of doing the right thing and putting the cops on their diddling asses.
Calgal
Really? He did that? What an asshole. A petty, vindictive, lowlife asshole.
JAB – Donohue’s got a new enemy now — Opie!
Well Opie’s been in trouble since he, Richie Cunningham, the Fonz and Andy Taylor endorsed Obama.
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/cc65ed650d/ron-howards-call-to-action-from-ron-howard-and-henry-winkler
It’s interesting that pro-lifers are being so silent on this. I just checked out prowomanprolife and not a word.
Darn. And I was sooo hoping to get on his list with my post on this subject…
Calgal – “Interesting” is the word. Even SUZANNE only posted about it under duress, after getting inundated with questions about it. And even then, the post was about the nature of excommunication, not a defense of the church’s conduct (which she defended in the comments).
Same with lifesite — this is the kind of story they’d normally be on like a dirty shirt, but they avoided reporting on it for days. Finally they did, once they found a way to put a positive spin on their defense of the church’s conduct.
PWPL is supposed to be non-religious — that’s the image they’re trying to remove from the anti-choice movement (although at least a couple of them work for Focus on the Family and the Institute of Marriage and Family, both of which are overtly religious fundie organizations). They are anti-abortion absolutists, which means they would likely support the church’s position: nothing says “a 15-week fetus is more important than a 9year old girl” like being on that side of this particular issue.
If they say anything about it, the spin will be “abortion hurts women!” and that the abortion (as quick and relatively painless a procedure as a tonsillectomy) will do endless psychological damage to the little girl. Right. Like forced birth wouldn’t.
RB – Opie and the Fonz are in deep shit now
Aaaayyy!
JJ, not to mention ‘Sheriff Andy Taylor’ who, after all, was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by GWB in 2005. What an ingrate, eh?
The Sheriff got that Kiss Of Death, the Medal of Freedom? He’s lucky to be alive.
I cannot believe that SUZANNE and her ilk are promoting C-section and/or hysterectomy in cases like this. Verily, I have now heard it all. Though it does underscore the absurdity of her fetal rights position, I wouldn’t expect her to notice.
brebis – Ugh, who ARE those people?? A hysterectomy for a 9 year old girl? Just to save a FETUS?? And the other one, who says that poor girl will have to live with the terrible knowledge that her babies were killed? Fer chrissake, she’s NINE. Can they be any more insane? I can’t even stand to go over there any more.
Presumably, they wanted the fetuses extracted, live, from the uterus so they could be held and comforted by the 9-year-old “mother” as they expire. And talk of martyrdom started to creep into the conversation.
I go there to find out the depths to which their fetishist absolutism will sink, and I often come out surprised and curiously enlightened. For example, I now know that I have more compassion for the unborn than SHE has for the born.
Yes – who ARE these people? Nobody I’ve ever met in real life, that’s for sure.
brebis – Held and comforted by the 9 year old “mother”?? — see, this is what I don’t get. How they can’t understsnd that this girl has no idea about what was happening to her. She wasn’t “a mother”, she’s a kid! The abortion meant nothing to her, other than being an operation to make her stomach pain go away.
I have to admit I’m shocked by the barbarity of these people towards this girl. Their attitude is “old enough to bleed, old enough to breed”. You should see the discussion at FD. The apologists for the church are just sickening. They maintain that if the girl could get pregnant, then her body was ready for motherhood, (regardless of what the doctors said about her uterus being too small). What!?? She’s NINE.
Sickening, stupid beyond belief, backwards, barbaric scum… I’m running out of ways to describe these cretins.
Maybe they wanted her to emulate her moral betters like Ricky “Man on Dog” Santorum.
JAB – Eww. That story always makes me cringe.
Well, as with their anti-contraception views, they should talk loud and long so that regular and reasonable folks like us lefties
can better understand the depths of their depravity and bloodthirstiness.
I am just looking for some time to write about my obstetrical experiences with young heifers who conceived but were definitely not physiologically ready to bring even a single fetus to term.
Their anti-contraception views have always amazed me — how can you be anti-abortion AND anti-contraception? It doesn’t make any sense… if people don’t use contraception, unwanted pregnancies are almost guaranteed at some point. Then what? The message seems to be, either have every kid whether you want it or not, OR don’t have sex. FAT FRIGGIN CHANCE.
That would be an interesting article to read, brebis. If you post it on your blog, please post a link here, I’d love to read it.
BBW, quoting and approving Lifes(h)ite, has a post up to say that the abortion was unjustified. I will not post in the comments, as I believe her position on that should be shunned, as it were. I have read reports about the child’s condition when she presented at the hospital and they are medically sound – pretty much what I’d expect from a human child of 9 who is pregnant with twins in the fourth month. I’ve seen the same thing in young heifers with single calves, and yet cows aren’t known for having complicated pregnancies or births like humans are.
Her alternation between cautiously supporting the abortion and condemning it is ignorance and cruelty at its worst.
Hangings to good for this guy. He should be burned at the stake or broken on the rack!