That’ll leave a mark

The good news is that Uganda has cut the death penalty and life imprisonment from their proposed anti-gay legislation…:

Persistent international outcries have prevailed in Uganda where an anti-homosexuality bill is being edited before it goes to Parliament for a vote. The legislation previously included provisions for death by hanging in cases of HIV-positive gays caught having sex and life imprisonment for non-HIV-positive offenders. These two sentences have now been cut from the draft bill which will likely be passed in two weeks in order to gain support from religious leaders.

…but the bad news is that an anti-anyone bill could exist in any form.  (What’s next, 40 days in the hole for having green eyes?)

While it was the international outcry that caused Uganda to rethink the most draconian part of this brutally oppressive bill, ironically some of the inspiration for this odious legislation also comes from an outside source — one of those absurd “pray the gay away” books being flogged by an American snake oil salesman “gay-to-straight” “therapist”.

Here Rachel Maddow interviews Richard Cohen, whose book “Coming Out Straight” was cited by the creeps pushing the bill as justification for it, because it perpetuates the horribly (and provably) wrong idea that being gay is a choice.  And it’s one of the best smackdowns I’ve seen on TV:

Vodpod videos no longer available.

23 Responses to “That’ll leave a mark”


  1. 1 J. A. Baker Wednesday, December 9, 2009 at 10:59 pm

    (What’s next, 40 days in the hole for having green eyes?)

    JJ, you’d be surprised

  2. 2 Shade Wednesday, December 9, 2009 at 11:33 pm

    God those “therapists” really think highly of themselves, because I can tell you if anything could cause a person to be straight, the closet would be it five years of that didn’t work on me. So I doubt very much ANYTHING they could say or do would work.

    Personally I think these supposed gay “converts” are either lying or bi-sexual. Of course that’s from my personal experience and I’ve had lots of platonic relationships with men and women and with my parents.

  3. 3 Bleatmop Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 7:01 am

    Being able to convert someone to heterosexuality is about as likely as being able to convert someone to homosexuality. I always blows my mind when fundies think they can do it one way, but they never consider it going the other way.

  4. 4 RealityBites Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 7:31 am

    They do – they don’t really acknowledge the existence of sexual orientation. People are led into sin, resist sin or are never tempted to sin, but all people are heterosexual as God created them and homosexuality is a learned behaviour that can be unlearned.

    And of course people do discover their true sexual orientation or even change it. I think though, that when this happens, it happens to people who are at ease with their own sexuality and aren’t looking to change, but suddenly find they’ve fallen in love with someone of the sex they’ve never previously considered as right for them.

  5. 5 brebis noire Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 8:17 am

    I’m sure Cohen is happy to be a parent, and probably happy to be in a stable relationship with a woman; at least from a social and professional pov. That doesn’t preclude any sexual longings he has for men, and any relationships he might have on the side. Much like Pastor Ted, I’m sure his feelings are genuine toward his family at least.

    Maybe bisexual, who knows. The way society is structured, it’s hard for homosexual men (moreso than for women) who also have a natural desire to be a parent, or just to have a conventional lifestyle. It’s too bad that they come to associate their sexual longings with a sense of shame, unworthiness and perversity. And then focus that sexual shame on an unfortunate woman…

  6. 6 mouthyorange Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 8:56 am

    Fundies have no faith that heterosexuality has any validity. If they did, they’d not have to try to prove anything or change anyone.

    They don’t trust God, you know? They think they have to control everything and make everything happen themselves.

  7. 7 Cornelius T.Zen Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 9:41 am

    Good morrow, all!
    Instead of my usual rant, I have called upon the services of my old friend Professor Ludvig Von Kalkulator to help me make comment on the following excerpt from Richard Cohen’s book:
    “Homosexuals are at least 12 times more likely to molest children than heterosexuals; homosexual teachers are at least 7 times more likely to molest a pupil; homosexual teachers are estimated to have committed at least 25 percent of pupil molestation; 40 percent of molestation assaults were made by those who engage in homosexuality”
    First: that would indicate that 12 out of 13, or 92.3% of recorded molestations of children were committed, or likely committed, by homosexuals. However, “40 percent of molestation assaults were made by those who engage in homosexuality”
    So which is it? 40% or 92.3%? If it’s only 40%, there must be a whole lot of frustrated gays out there, just slavering to molest children even as we speak. Something must be done!!!11!!! That also means that 60% of those child molestations are committed by…straights…uh-oh…the straights are getting to the kids before the gays do…not fair at all…
    “homosexual teachers are at least 7 times more likely to molest a pupil;” okay…however…”homosexual teachers are estimated to have committed at least 25 percent of pupil molestation” …that means that 3 out of 4 such molestations are committed by people WHO ARE NOT GAY!!! What are we going to do about those STRAIGHT molesters?
    Thanks for the help, Professor, I can take it from here.
    When somebody contradicts himself so blatantly in one paragraph, maybe he should write speeches for Sarah Palin
    Math is tough! – CTZen

  8. 8 JJ Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 10:14 am

    JAB – Right, “kick a ginger” day. I think South Park’s original intent might have been good — to show how utterly fucking stupid it is to persecute someone because of something they can’t help — but obviously it went a little sideways. Jebus, people are dumb.

  9. 9 JJ Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 10:18 am

    Shade

    Personally I think these supposed gay “converts” are either lying or bi-sexual.

    What!?? 😯 But Ted Haggard is Completely Heterosexual!

  10. 10 JJ Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 10:28 am

    bleatmop

    Being able to convert someone to heterosexuality is about as likely as being able to convert someone to homosexuality. It always blows my mind when fundies think they can do it one way, but they never consider it going the other way.

    Sure they do. That’s why they spread all the lies about gay people “recruiting” children etc. They really are dumb enough to think it’s a choice.

  11. 11 JJ Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 10:37 am

    RB

    And of course people do discover their true sexual orientation or even change it.

    IMO it’s more of an acknowledgment of a reality that they may have been unaware of, or unwilling to accept. But you’re right in that by acknowledging and accepting who they are, a person might change the way they represent their orientation to the rest of the world.

  12. 12 JJ Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 10:56 am

    brebis

    Much like Pastor Ted, I’m sure his feelings are genuine toward his family at least.

    Oh for sure. I don’t think the desire to be a dad (or the ability to be a good one) has anything to do with sexual orientation. I’m sure even these guys who think they’ve changed their orientation (which I don’t buy for a second) are good and loving fathers to their kids, even if they themselves are a little fucked up.

    But at the same time, they are buying into the rather toxic notion that being a father means they couldn’t possibly be gay.

  13. 13 JJ Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 11:14 am

    mouthyorange

    Fundies have no faith that heterosexuality has any validity. If they did, they’d not have to try to prove anything or change anyone.

    They’re extremely uncomfortable with sex in general. Look how they have to punish women just for having heterosexual sex. It just gets worse from there.

  14. 14 JJ Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 11:18 am

    CTZen – Yes, math is tough!

    What amazed me is that even Cohen (tacitly) admitted that was discredited disinformation — isn’t that the part he said was coming out of the book’s next edition? And yet, nobody thought to mention that to the Ugandans thinking about anti-gay legislation.

    People like Cohen really are slime.

  15. 15 Bleatmop Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 1:59 pm

    JJ – I read that pro-life beliefs image you linked and all I am stunned. Like, wow. That really sums it up. I never fully considered the prolifers punishing women for having sex angle but I think I’m going to start.

  16. 16 mouthyorange Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    Yeah JJ, I read it too and I think you’re right. They hate women, and they hate women’s sexuality. So they have created an image of woman that is limited to the narrowest of all possible dimensions and they use that to try exclude the full, complex rest of what each individual woman could possibly be about. Including having a very powerful sexuality and loving that for itself and not for its contribution toward making babies. And I also think they have no faith that heterosexuality is valid and can take of itself, and no faith in the god they try so desperately to believe in. Because if they did, they wouldn’t be trying to do the job they think God should be doing.

  17. 17 Rob F Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    It seems to me that many of these fundies count teaching some gay or lesbian person to become abstinent as “changing” their sexual orientation. This claim, of course, makes absolutely no sense. You could easily apply it to heterosexuality. Since these same fundies also love abstinence-only sex education (which is as effective as “just don’t shoot” gun safety), wouldn’t this mean that they are changing straight students’ sexual orientation? Why are they in favour of forced medical treatment?

  18. 18 Reality Bites Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 7:32 pm

    JJ – IMO it’s more of an acknowledgment of a reality that they may have been unaware of, or unwilling to accept.

    I don’t know, JJ. I could buy that if all the movement was from straight to gay, but it sometimes happens in the other direction. I find it hard to conceive of anyone in our society believing they’re gay or lesbian and never considering they might possibly be straight or bisexual, or be unwilling to accept their heterosexuality.

    The British series “Bob and Rose,” from Queer as Folk/Doctor Who producer Russell T Davies, dealt with a gay man falling in love with a straight woman. It was based on something that had happened to a friend of his.

    I think human sexuality, like just about any aspect of human desires and behaviour, is too varied to lump everyone into a few categories.

  19. 19 JJ Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 11:56 pm

    bleatmop – It’s all about punishment, don’t even doubt it for a second.

    If it wasn’t about punishment, then logically fetus fetishists should be gung ho about contraception, right? But most of them are against it. So what does that tell you? They just don’t want women having sex. Those that do are deserving of punishment, whether that’s by forcing the woman to carry the pregnancy to term, or banning abortion so that getting one will put womens’ lives in jeopardy.

    Total punishment freaks, the lot of them.

  20. 20 JJ Friday, December 11, 2009 at 12:01 am

    mouthyorange – They have a pretty horrific view of women. I was reading one of the fundie sites a few minutes ago, they were arguing about Palin’s chances to run for president. Some of the guys who liked Palin said she shouldn’t run because “leadership isn’t for women”. WTF?? Some of the comments were astonishing, I might screen shot a few and post them… as Horrible Warnings. Don’t let this happen to you! 😆

  21. 21 JJ Friday, December 11, 2009 at 12:04 am

    Rob F – For a long time, they wouldn’t acknowledge that there was even such a thing as natural same sex attraction — they were adamant about it being a choice. Now, they seem to realize (since so many of THEM have been outed) that it is indeed a naturally-occuring thing — but their answer to that is to condemn what they are now calling “homosexual behaviour”. In other words, if someone is gay, they are expected to be celibate.

    Right 🙄

  22. 22 JJ Friday, December 11, 2009 at 12:10 am

    RB – Interesting. IMO, sexuality isn’t always easy to nail down — yes, most people develop strong preferences one way or the other, but there are also a thousand shades of gray between the black & white absolutes. So, I can see how people in those gray areas could change.

  23. 23 RealityBites Friday, December 11, 2009 at 9:51 am

    Also in the non-sexual realm, think of how many things about yourself have changed over the years. As a child I was an enthusiastic (which is not to imply talented or capable) swimmer and diver. I haven’t swum (swam? swimmed?) in decades – I’m somewhat astonished to realize that I once actually took pleasure in it.

    Some of us seem to be hard-wired to be attracted to people of a certain age group. Most of us though, seem to have an age range that ages with us – we might like people our own age, or 10 years younger, or 10 years older, so the person who at 20 can’t see anything attractive about someone 40 finds 40-year-olds delightful at 40, and shockingly immature at 60.

    I don’t think that the fact that the majority of people make these changes in their own sexuality alters the fact that these are fairly major changes.

    Incidentally, when I skim through my high school yearbook, the guys I lusted after then are still lustworthy. They don’t register with me the same way a present-day 17-year-old would.


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