Surrey fundie drops HRC complaint

The right-wing Anti-HRC Talking Points must have gotten held up in the backlog of War On Christmas mail.  But the Pony Express finally made it over the Rockies to Surrey and got that memo into the holy-rollin’ hands of Paul Jubenvill, who decided to drop a complaint he’d filed against his kid’s school for refusing to allow a bible study group:

Surrey parent Paul Jubenvill has withdrawn his human rights complaint over an elementary school’s refusal to provide space for a Bible study group.

Jubenvill said Wednesday he was taken aback by the storm of controversy over his plans to hold voluntary meetings on Christianity at Colebrook Elementary School. […]

Jubenvill had filed a complaint with the B.C. Human Rights Tribunal on Dec. 1 after he was refused space for the noon-hour group.By way of explanation, the school board said it had a legislated duty to separate church and education in elementary schools.

According to Jubenvill, a 35-year-old software designer who lives “by God’s word,” his freedom of religion was guaranteed under the Canadian Human Rights Act.

But he has now withdrawn his official complaint “after further reflection.”

This is what cracks me up:  the school, a taxpayer-funded public school, wants to keep things secular and rightly so.  But even though he’s free to worship as he sees fit at home, in church, in the woods with bunnies and squirrels or even standing on an orange crate wild-eyed and whacked out on a downtown street corner, somehow Jubenvill feels the school’s decision not to allow it in this one place is an infringement of his “freedom of religion”.  Does the whining never end??

87 Responses to “Surrey fundie drops HRC complaint”


  1. 1 adopted Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    Discrimination starts “in one place.” Would you wave it aside if discrimination against womens “right” to murder their babies occurred in just one place? They could do that at home or in the woods with bunnies.

  2. 2 JJ Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 3:14 pm

    False equivalence, fail, try again.

  3. 3 Shade Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 3:52 pm

    Adopted

    The public school is there to provide a secular education.

    A church exists for people to listen to preachers and worship whatever god you believe in and pray.

    See how they do different things?

  4. 4 Parliament Shill Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 4:01 pm

    “Would you wave it aside if discrimination against womens “right” to murder their babies occurred in just one place?”

    I can name numerous places in society where women cannot obtain an abortion. In the sanctuary of a church, for example. I can also name many places where women cannot purchase oral contraceptives. At a gas station, for example. And there are a vast array of buildings where you would not be allowed to undergo any surgical procedure whatsoever, even an uncontroversial one like open heart surgery.

    People’s right to express themselves freely are limited in certain places, such as courts and chambers of Parliament. People’s right to move about freely and to enter and leave Canada is limited in certain places, like prisons. Actually, it seems as though there are all kinds of rights for which there are certain places where you can’t express them as freely as one might like to. This is (almost) fun. Shall we go on?

    Or how about a simpler, more relevant one: you find me a school that is conducting abortions on the premises, and I will support Jubenvill’s quest to hold Bible studies there.

  5. 5 Janus Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 4:33 pm

    Huh. This is the first I’ve heard of this case, and I live in Surrey, fairly close to Colebrook school.

    Freedom of religion is not universal. His freedom of religion must stop where it interferes with somebody else’s freedom of religion — including freedom from religion.

  6. 6 Phatbiker Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 5:03 pm

    I wonder how Jubenvill (and adopted) would feel (if he got his way), if a mullah wanted to be able to do readings from the Koran at the school. After all fair is fair!

  7. 7 Dr. Prole Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 6:23 pm

    Phatbiker, even better – Enochian magick!

  8. 8 smelter rat Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 7:17 pm

    These wingnuts should be sent the bill for all the legal work that goes in to dealing with their foolishness.

  9. 9 JJ Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 11:36 pm

    Parliament Shill – Ha! Hahahaha! Very good, that was fun 😉

    (If “adopted” can find a school that’s doing abortions, I’ll run the freaking bible study myself!)

  10. 10 JJ Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 11:38 pm

    Janus – Right, “Freedom of Religion” means you’re free to practice your religion — it doesn’t mean you’re free to practice it anywhere and anytime you want. Good grief, these people are fucking stupid.

  11. 11 JJ Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 11:41 pm

    Phatbiker – In all seriousness, that’s exactly the reason why things like bible studies aren’t allowed on public school property — not because of Muslims specifically, but because it means that every religion would have to get similar privileges.

  12. 13 JJ Thursday, December 10, 2009 at 11:46 pm

    smelter rat – I agree, people who file stupid HRC complaints should have to pick up the tab for it, absolutely. What really sucks is that even when a claim goes through the process and is ultimately rejected by the HRC, whoever the claim was filed against doesn’t get any restitution for their time or money spent fighting the complaint. And the complainant walks away without having to pay anything. That’s wrong.

  13. 14 adopted Friday, December 11, 2009 at 1:35 am

    Do you come here to pat each other on the back? It seems unhealthy. Question for you (though I can’t seem to subscribe to this comment list): upon exactly which ideological foundation do you place your morals? If you can speak of “right” and “wrong,” then you are religious, but you hide behind words like “secular” and “science.”

    Have the recent ideologies (humanism, darwinism, postmodernism, hedonism, moral relativism) produced a healthy generation? Teenage pregnancies, abortions, broken homes, adultery. Do you care about our children? And still no cure for the human engagement of warfare, rape, murder, embezzlement. You like this stuff? Or do you see that humans have a massive problem, and have a great need of a Savior?

    Imagine if our social suffering is just a foretaste– the God of justice, long-suffering, but coming in vengeance. The day of judgment will make our miserable human existences look like comfort food.

    I say these things because I care about you. Sometimes care expresses itself a little bluntly, because people have a tendency to get sleepy.

  14. 15 smelter rat Friday, December 11, 2009 at 4:43 am

    @adopted: go fuck yourself.

  15. 16 Shade Friday, December 11, 2009 at 5:23 am

    “If you can speak of “right” and “wrong,” then you are religious, but you hide behind words like “secular” and “science.””

    Incorrect morals have developed in many social structures in history without Christianity or a religion of any kind expressly forbbiding things such as murder and rape.

    The Abouriginal tribes of Australia for example, while they did have belief in spirit people were never told they’d be punished by a divine entity for doing bad things. However murder of their own tribe or a allied tribe and rape were offenses that were dealt with harshly.

    That’s one occurance of morals without threat of punishment from a creator god and there’s more if you bothered to open your eyes.

    It’s also a foolish claim to make that Theocracy is any better, as they have supported slavery, subservience of women, murder, rape and other acts that while claimed to be immoral were still done.

    I’ll keep my secular society where everyone is free to believe what they want and I’m allowed to go shopping on Sunday thank you.

  16. 17 Parliament Shill Friday, December 11, 2009 at 7:00 am

    @adopted — You catch more bees with honey, and you might enjoy a more satisfying interactive discussion if you did more than just post rhetorical posturing. Still, in answer to your questions:

    I base my morals on what I think is right. Most of this could be summarized as an interpretation of anarchism, pacifism, and, oddly enough, the teachings of Jesus and several of the prophets. But if you’re going to say that any definition of “right and wrong” is “religious,” then all you’ve done is define religion so broadly that it includes everything. You and many like you denounce “relativism.” But by saying that your views are religious and that ours must be religious, too, what are you doing but engaging in a form of relativism? And if our “failed” ideologies pale next to the coming wrath of your God, then shouldn’t you be more concerned with criticizing His violent behaviour than ours? If that’s the “truth,” mark me down as a conscientious objector.

    Just so we’re clear, I can find all of your laundry list of “evils” committed in the Bible, frequently by men described as righteous and God-fearing. So I guess it’s not just the evil secular hordes who are guilty of such things.

    “I say these things because I care about you. Sometimes care expresses itself a little bluntly, because people have a tendency to get sleepy.”

    Sure you do. And I care about you, too. Which is why I bother to turn the other cheek when you threaten me with eternal damnation.

  17. 18 J. A. Baker Friday, December 11, 2009 at 8:08 am

    Question for you (though I can’t seem to subscribe to this comment list): upon exactly which ideological foundation do you place your morals? If you can speak of “right” and “wrong,” then you are religious, but you hide behind words like “secular” and “science.”

    *AHEM*

    If we did a good act merely from the love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? It is idle to say, as some do, that no such thing exists. We have the same evidence of the fact as of most of those we act on, to wit: their own affirmations, and their reasonings in support of them. … Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than love of God.
    – Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

    Thomas frickin’ Jefferson recognized that it is possible to be moral without belief in a deity. If you can’t or won’t bring yourself to agree with him on that, then you are simply un-American.

    And if Christians are so much more moral than the rest of us infidels, then explain the pedophile priest scandal in the Catholic Church, Pope Pius XII’s utter refusal to condemn the Holocaust, Abu Ghraib, the Salem Witch Trials, all the anti-abortion terrorism, etc., etc., etc.

    Besides, no deity worth worshiping would act like the tinpot dictator described in the Old Testament and Revelations that you seem to willingly enslave yourself to. You’ll note that I didn’t mention the parts about Jesus. Those are probably the best parts of the Bible. But if you’re like the average fundie, you have as little respect for your Savior as the Pharisees did – he’s too much of a Dirty Fuckin’ Hippie™ for you.

    Mahatma Gandhi had people like you pegged: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

  18. 19 RealityBites Friday, December 11, 2009 at 9:37 am

    Or as my grandfather used to say (may well have been quoting someone without attribution), “The last Christian died on the cross.”

  19. 20 Cornelius T.Zen Friday, December 11, 2009 at 9:54 am

    Good morrow, all!
    I have read the poor man’s story. He wishes to proselytize. Does he not remember what Jesus told his disciples?
    To paraphrase: If they do not accept you or your witnessing to Me, walk to the edge of their town and shake the dust off your sandals. Running with tears to the HRC doesn’t sound much like shaking much dust, does it? The freedom of religion also implies freedom FROM religion. He has the right to witness to his God, but NOT just any place he so chooses. such as a mosque, a synagogue, a Buddhist temple or a biker bar.
    Poor, pitiful, persecuted Christian. Guess he forgot that Jesus told his disciples that not everybody would welcome them with open arms, open doors and open wallets.
    Disciple: You mean, some people might not like us?
    Jesus: Well, duh!
    Be honest, be faithful, be kind – all else is commentary – CTZen

  20. 21 Torontonian Friday, December 11, 2009 at 9:56 am

    Perhaps this complainant is taking the lyrics of
    a hymn too literally. It’s called Go Tell It
    On The Mountain. The first three lines, which
    are repeated several more times are:

    Go tell it on the mountain,
    Over the hills and everywhere,
    Go tell it on the mountain,
    . . . . .

    That passage is repeated two more times
    in the following 4 verses. Pretty insistent
    isn’t it?

    Surrey has always been a religious hotbed.
    Dona Cadman is their MP.
    I can think of many controversies about
    religion in and around Surrey for more
    than 20 years.

  21. 22 Torontonian Friday, December 11, 2009 at 10:06 am

    JA Baker

    There are several words that come to mind and
    they need to be more greatly understood.

    They are upright, moral, right, righteous
    and self-righteous.

    Most of us are upright and moral persons who
    do the right thing.

    There are those who like
    to profess themselves as righteous and place
    themselves in an elitist class. The righteous
    like to have their own world of business dealings
    for all matters, schooling, doctors, trades,
    and all but the most vital services
    such as utilities and taxes and city hall.
    Charles McVety, Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell
    spring to mind as does Oral and Richard Roberts.

    The self-righteous usually arethe ones who drive
    us to distraction–usually on Sunday mornings on TV.

  22. 23 adopted Friday, December 11, 2009 at 11:58 am

    Shill:

    You “base [your] morals on what [you] think is right.”

    Satan told Eve that she could “be like God,” knowing the difference between good and evil [if she disobeyed God and ate from the tree of knowledge].

    Charles Manson did what he thought was right as well.

    Marilyn Manson said antichrist isn’t so much walking around with “666” on your head as it is simply realizing that you are a powerful being who can make choices.

    satan tells us all that we can be “like God” and we are powerful to make choices. he just doesn’t mention the vanity and ultimate judgment against it. (he is the father of lies.)

  23. 24 smelter rat Friday, December 11, 2009 at 12:04 pm

    @ Adopted: Go fuck yourself. Harder this time.

  24. 25 Scary Fundamentalist Friday, December 11, 2009 at 12:15 pm

    I don’t see this case so much as one of freedom of religion, but rather one of freedom of assembly and association. If voluntary student-led interest groups of many types are allowed to meet on school property (which in this case they were), why should some be allowed and some not? Are we going to police every extra-curricular group ACLU-style to make sure some clandestine religious discussions aren’t taking place?

    In addition, how do you square this school board’s refusal with the fact that high schools in Surrey allow religious-based groups (including Islamic ones) to meet on school property?

  25. 26 Parliament Shill Friday, December 11, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    @adopted — You’re absolutely right about Satan! Why, he said just that very thing during our lunch date today!

    You do what you think is right as well, I presume. We’re more alike than you seem to realize.

  26. 27 joe agnost Friday, December 11, 2009 at 12:52 pm

    Too funny… adopted is quoting Marilyn Manson!! Too much!

    adopted wrote: “The day of judgment will make our miserable human existences look like comfort food.”

    Ah yes… that must be the christian “love” I hear so much about! 😉

  27. 28 JJ Friday, December 11, 2009 at 1:00 pm

    Adopted – Anyone who has so little intrinsic moral integrity that they need religion to tell them what’s right and wrong has serious issues.

    Sorry but I have zero respect for fairy tales and apocalyptic hallucinations that make people do irrational things like conduct inquisitions and fly planes into buildings.

  28. 29 smelter rat Friday, December 11, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    It is not possible to have a rational discussion with these people. My response to “adopted”, although crude,is the only logical one.

  29. 30 joe agnost Friday, December 11, 2009 at 1:10 pm

    Let me add to your apt comment smelter rat:

    “@ Adopted: Go fuck yourself. Harder this time.”

    Yeah – with a baseball bat! 🙂

  30. 31 JJ Friday, December 11, 2009 at 1:16 pm

    scary fundie

    Are we going to police every extra-curricular group ACLU-style to make sure some clandestine religious discussions aren’t taking place?

    Straw man. The issue is school property, and the giving over of said property for organized promotion of religion. (ANY religion.) If people really want to get together and study the koran or the bible, there are mosques and churches, and all kinds of other public places that aren’t taxpayer-funded that can accomodate them.

    In addition, how do you square this school board’s refusal with the fact that high schools in Surrey allow religious-based groups (including Islamic ones) to meet on school property?

    It depends what you mean by “meeting on school property”.

    Is the school giving Muslim students a room on school property to conduct organized, ongoing Koran studies? Unacceptable.

    Or is there a bunch of like-minded students who casually meet up by their own choice and yak about religion? That’s a little different.

  31. 32 JJ Friday, December 11, 2009 at 1:17 pm

    smelter rat – Can’t say I disagree. Sometimes I have the patience for it but today is not one of those times.

  32. 33 RealityBites Friday, December 11, 2009 at 1:17 pm

    That would be a shocking waste of a perfectly good baseball bat.

  33. 34 J. A. Baker Friday, December 11, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    That would be a shocking waste of a perfectly good baseball bat.

    Not to mention the fact that he might actually enjoy it. Can you imagine him having to face his pastor knowing that? 😆

    &ltLarry Craig>Let me be clear: I am not a baseball bat-ophile. I never have been a baseball bat-ophile.</Larry Craig>

  34. 35 J. A. Baker Friday, December 11, 2009 at 1:39 pm

    Darn, I left the semicolon off of the opening <

  35. 36 Scary Fundamentalist Friday, December 11, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    As far as I know, there are student-led bible studies in designated rooms at public high schools in Surrey. Similarly, there are areas in which Muslim students can spread out their prayer mats a couple times a day.

    As for meeting up and casually yakking about religion, the ACLU doesn’t like that one bit, either.

    Would you have a problem with a student-led feminist group? Or is that another straw (wo)man?

  36. 37 JJ Friday, December 11, 2009 at 1:49 pm

    Torontonian – I used to live in Surrey, and it is right on the edge of the bible belt, which is actually a little further east (Langley, Abbotsford). (My part of Surrey worshipped at the Church of Harley-Davidson 😛 )

    Generally, the further south and east you go, the more you get into bible bangin territory. My bike broke down near Abbotsford one Sunday morning and you should have seen the looks I was getting from everyone headed home after church — even the kids looked vicious 😯 I was glad when my ex finally showed up — I was sure these people wanted to kill me.

  37. 38 JJ Friday, December 11, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    Scary

    As far as I know, there are student-led bible studies in designated rooms at public high schools in Surrey.

    If that’s true, and it’s the same thing as what was being proposed by this guy who made the HRC complaint, it’s unacceptable. WTF’s wrong with church if they want to do this?

    As for meeting up and casually yakking about religion, the ACLU doesn’t like that one bit, either.

    Well, the ACLU are a bunch of fascists then. People can talk about whatever they want.

    Would you have a problem with a student-led feminist group?

    No, because feminism isn’t a religion. I don’t have a problem with anti-abortion student groups either.

  38. 39 Scary Fundamentalist Friday, December 11, 2009 at 2:08 pm

    I guess we would have to get down to the nitty-gritty of the difference between belief systems (pro-life, feminism) and organized religion.

    I concur with the fascistic tendencies of the ACLU. They actually hire student spies to watch out for any students or faculty talking about or doing anything that could be construed as religious.

    “WTF’s wrong with church if they want to do this?” Confining the expressions of religion only to private property would be contravening Charter freedoms, no?

  39. 40 JJ Friday, December 11, 2009 at 3:11 pm

    Scary – This is what I don’t get about you guys (although I have more respect for your opinion on these things than the others who rant irrationally).

    It’s not confined to anywhere (ie. only at churches or private homes), it’s just restricted from certain places — ie., certain taxpayer-funded public properties, like schools. I don’t get how that’s being “confined”, unless by “confined” you mean “confined to practically anywhere in the world but public schools”.

    Like I said in the post, there are umpteen million places people can get together and have a bible/koran/whatever study if they really want one. Is it too much to ask to keep it out of the public schools? There are already private religious schools that specialize in this kind of thing, so why oh why do they have to invade secular public schools?

  40. 41 Phatbiker Friday, December 11, 2009 at 4:55 pm

    ” so why oh why do they have to invade secular public schools?”
    They feel that it’s their duty and think that they are morally superior to us non-believers. Brain-wash children into believing in their imaginary bronze-age sky god, and other superstitious nonsense. Adam @ Eve, Noah’s ark, immaculate conception etc. All bullshit, some stolen from other superstitions / religions.
    I remember when I was in middle school (early sixtys), there used to be this hunch-back preacher that came and taught a religious class once a week (compulsory). At that time I wanted to be a paleontologist and studied it on my own. When I heard the superstitious crap come out of that man’s mouth, it was all I could do not to laugh out loud. It was then I realized I was an Atheist and still am in the C Hitchens/R Dawkins camp.

  41. 42 smelter rat Friday, December 11, 2009 at 5:01 pm

    @Scary: Go fuck yourself.

  42. 43 Janus Friday, December 11, 2009 at 6:31 pm

    “Surrey has always been a religious hotbed.

    Dona Cadman is their MP.”

    Actually, Surrey is a multicultural hotbed of international note. It’s also the largest city in Canada, geographically speaking. And yeah, if there’s a cultural or religious tussle going on anywhere in the world, sooner or later, it will come to Surrey and make headlines (and maybe this is why I never heard of this until now — it’s tame compared to other events I could name). Never a dull moment, I swear!

    And strictly speaking, Dona is MP for Surrey North. And she’s currently in hiding from her constituents for her refusal to vote NO on the HST. Oh, she didn’t vote YES, either. She didn’t bother to show up. Definitely not Chuck! I think she’s a one-termer.

    But anyway, Colebrook School is not in Dona’s constituency. Sukh Dhaliwal is the MP for that area.

    “That would be a shocking waste of a perfectly good baseball bat.”

    I don’t see where Joe said it had to be a good bat! 😆

  43. 44 Scary Fundamentalist Monday, December 14, 2009 at 9:28 am

    “It’s not confined to anywhere, it’s just restricted from certain places.” Glass half-full, glass half-empty, but I see the error of my ways. Of course charter-protected freedoms are still subject to restrictions in a free and democratic society – it’s just that those restrictions have to be clearly justified and proportionally appropriate (Oakes test and all that).

    I guess I could say the same about feminist and pro-life orgs, then. Why should ideological groups, who advance beliefs that are not shared by the entire student body (in fact, some are vehemently opposed to or offended by them), be allowed in a school if religious ones aren’t? They have plenty of other places to meet, too.

    As for the ranters, they are ridiculously counterproductive to their cause. I hold statist social conservatives (the ones who want to force you to live according to their beliefs) in about the same regard as you do, sans innuendo.

    What boggles me is why they keep coming back…

  44. 45 The Anti-Social Socialist Monday, December 14, 2009 at 10:39 am

    Tell you what Scary – when your churches start paying taxes, I’ll have no problems with them infesting the schools.

    Until that point, stay the fuck out.

  45. 46 Scary Fundamentalist Monday, December 14, 2009 at 11:28 am

    First of all, A.S.S., I believe churches should be paying taxes and should not be receiving grant money, just like everybody else.

    But in the meantime, I’m sure you’ll extend your polite refusal to other special interest groups who aren’t being taxed and/or are receiving grant money. You know, consistency and all.

  46. 47 joe agnost Monday, December 14, 2009 at 11:59 am

    Scary wrote: “I’m sure you’ll extend your polite refusal to other special interest groups who aren’t being taxed…”

    Which special interest groups would those be??

  47. 48 The Anti-Social Socialist Monday, December 14, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    Oh good, Scary, you actually have some sense to you. Let me adjust my snark-level and expound on the earlier view.

    How about we look at what tax exempt groups are being allowed in and what aren’t.

    The ones being allowed in promote freedom, equality, education and kindness.
    Whereas religion is all about annihilating every aspect of those.

    Hmmmmmmmm…

    Evolution is fact.
    Women are equal.
    All members of the LGBT groups are equal.
    Your God is a murderer.
    Your religion promotes hate.
    Your bible promotes ignorance.

    Schools are for education, your religion is not. You want to brainwash children, bake more pies for sunday school.

  48. 49 JJ Monday, December 14, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    Antisocial – Don’t let Scary’s handle throw you — I believe he/she is a socon, but the rarest of all socons, a rational one. A good person to engage, always interesting to talk with even if you don’t come to an agreement, and always welcome here.

  49. 50 joe agnost Monday, December 14, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    Will someone please tell which (other than religious) groups are tax exempt? I’m a little slow… 😉

  50. 51 JJ Monday, December 14, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    Scary

    I guess I could say the same about feminist and pro-life orgs, then. Why should ideological groups, who advance beliefs that are not shared by the entire student body (in fact, some are vehemently opposed to or offended by them), be allowed in a school if religious ones aren’t? They have plenty of other places to meet, too.

    I guess the difference is ideology vs. organized religion, but I see what you’re getting at: there are definitely people who are just as rabid about their particular ideology/cause as members of any religion. In fact, I’m more offended by some ideologies than I am by any religion. However, there’s no right to *not* be offended. Some of the anti-abortion displays totally offend me, but so what? I look the other way. Problem solved.

    Religion is a different category I guess because it’s organized, and because society already sets aside places to practice it (churches, mosques). Whereas feminists and prolifers don’t have their own buildings to go to, so people in these groups apply to be student groups and then get the fringe benefits of that status, which include meeting on school property.

  51. 52 JJ Monday, December 14, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    Antisocial – I’m an atheist and I have little time for flat earthers, but I know several religious people who don’t promote hate and believe in all things you listed, so it can be done 😆

  52. 53 JJ Monday, December 14, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    Joe – Scary might be referring to (just an example) feminist groups who get funding through agencies like the Status of Women. The problem with the analogy is that a student feminist group doesn’t get funding itself, Scary is speaking of the ideology being equivalent to a form of religion, I think.

  53. 54 joe agnost Monday, December 14, 2009 at 1:08 pm

    But in terms of “tax exempt” – that’s just churches and gov’t right? Or are there other groups that enjoy this?

  54. 55 The Anti-Social Socialist Monday, December 14, 2009 at 1:14 pm

    Oh I agree JJ – there are folks who can get along with their religion and not be amongst the bigoted and such.

    However, when the friendly sort of religious person gets a in somewhere, the massive pile of shit that comprises the rest of their religion suddenly has an open doorway into someplace they couldn’t get into otherwise.

    Good intentions? Yea, there’s a saying about that.

  55. 56 Scary Fundamentalist Monday, December 14, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    Since A.S.S. made the specious connection between the tax-exempt status of organized religion, and student-led Bible studies which are rarely, if ever, associated with any particular denomination, one would have to extend that type of association to other interests.

    Since every non-profit organization, including advocacy groups and trade unions, receives tax exemptions, then any student-led group based on an interest that is advocated for by a non-profit org should be barred from public schools.

    So, for starters, no more High Schools Against Israeli Apartheid, which is supported by tax-exempt orgs. Hey, maybe this isn’t such a bad thing!

    Or how about the Teachers’ Union, who don’t pay taxes, passing out pamphlets for the students to take home? Can you imagine the uproar if it was religious material?

  56. 57 deBeauxOs Monday, December 14, 2009 at 4:21 pm

    JJ, there’s vermin infesting your comments section again.

  57. 58 deBeauxOs Monday, December 14, 2009 at 4:25 pm

    JJ, sorry about my intemperate remark regarding SF.

    It’s your blogsite and while SF spouts the same line of religious propaganda as Jasper did, he/she does appear to be less rabid about it.

  58. 59 Scary Fundamentalist Monday, December 14, 2009 at 4:32 pm

    JJ – I’m flattered. Really, truly, I am. In response to your 12:57 post, I would say that you’re justifying restrictions to charter freedoms based on a pretty fuzzy line between ideology and religion. Pro-lifers and feminists (simply two examples we’re bandying about) are eligible for non-profit status, and therefore tax-exemption, no? They are able to rent or own buildings, just like organized religion. The fact is, they don’t have the type of financial support that organized religion does, and therefore usually can’t afford it. To me, the level of support doesn’t justify restricting the use of public property to some and not others.

    Since you are able to look away when confronted with pro-life carnage, I can’t comprehend the difficulty of doing the same when you spot a small group of students meeting in a classroom at lunch time. With their manuals of ignorance (Bibles), of course.

    Joe: I’m not certain of the details, but I believe that non-profits are tax-exempt in terms of revenue, refunds of GST/PST, etc. Religious groups get these plus their contributions are classified as a donation, but they and their property are subject to a much tighter set of restrictions because of it (e.g. no lobbying, no partisan political events, etc). Unions get tax-exempt status, deductible contributions, and other extra perks, and aren’t subject to any political restrictions.

    A.S.S.: Your massive pile of shit smells just as bad as any other.

  59. 60 The Anti-Social Socialist Tuesday, December 15, 2009 at 12:03 am

    Yes, because fighting for gay rights, women’s rights and freedom from archaic bondage sure as hell matches the whackjobs that use your book to support their views.

  60. 61 Paul Jubenvill Wednesday, May 19, 2010 at 9:49 pm

    Prejudice/discrimination is not tolerated in Canada, on the grounds of ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion, gender, or age. Documents such as the federal Charter of Freedoms and Rights, and the provincial School Act spell these things out very clearly.

    These documents and concepts opposing discrimination are used to defend and assert the right for gay clubs, for example. Discrimination against certain religions is also not tolerated, such as discrimination against Muslims.

    But Canadians hate the One Righteous, the King of kings, our Master Jesus of Nazareth so much, that they stop their ears at hearing a case of obvious discrimination against Christianity, and the Bible — a book that teaches us to not celebrate our wickedness (‘pride parades’?) — a book that teaches us to not follow our dreams like your local rapist, wife beater, alcoholic, pedophile, or murderer — a book that teaches us that [obviously] the solution to the human problem is outside of humans including elementary school teachers who [have always dreamed of being] mothers of a new and innocent generation — the solution is only found in a Higher Power, predicted by the prophets, demonstrated, testified, and secured by God’s perfect Son, reported by eyewitness apostles, and today witnessed in the lives of true Christians, who are the salt and light of the world and are known by their love for one another. Their bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, and like the wind, you do not know where they came from or where they are going. You are in the dark, we are in the Light. You hate us, we love you. Would you listen to somebody who loves you and tells you to get off that train you’re on which is about to plummet off a cliff, or would you listen to your ‘friends’ who tell you that they accept you for who you are [and so does God], so just ignore that sore conscience until it’s completely burned off. This kind of tolerance will stand by and watch you go straight to hell. This is not love.

    The efforts of humans and demons against the kingdom of our Lord are fleeting, and the day is coming when all of creation will rejoice about justice when the wicked are sentenced to the lake of fire. In the meantime, may God help me and my brothers work to show love to our neighbours — this is only reasonable (Romans 12:1) given the rich blessings we have received while yet undeserving.

    Paul Jubenvill

  61. 62 JJ Wednesday, May 19, 2010 at 10:40 pm

    Good grief, Paul J, it’s just that kind of rambling, semi-coherent diatribe that gives fundies a bad name.

    By the way, that bit about following your dreams? I don’t know what your dreams are like, but nobody I know has ever dreamed about being a rapist, wife beater, alcoholic, pedophile or murderer.

    Maybe start cutting the pills in half, eh?

  62. 63 Paul Jubenvill Thursday, May 20, 2010 at 12:11 am

    @JJ, the ‘secular’ schools teach our children to follow their heart, based on the religious dogma that the human heart is a source of goodness. history shows otherwise. murderers and rapists weren’t following the voice of God when they commit(ted) these acts, so what do you think was their guide?

    Jeremiah had a clue: “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?”

  63. 64 Bleatmop Thursday, May 20, 2010 at 12:29 am

    What ever happened to Anti-social socialist?? I haven’t seen him in ages.

  64. 65 joe agnost Thursday, May 20, 2010 at 6:40 am

    PaulJ wrote: “a book that teaches us to not follow our dreams like your local rapist,…, pedophile…”

    Oh… I think you mean “priest”. Why waste all that bandwidth spelling it out explicitly (“rapist, pedophile”) when you could have simply written “priest” and we’d have known what you meant.

  65. 66 joe agnost Thursday, May 20, 2010 at 6:42 am

    Paul J wrote: ” murderers and rapists weren’t following the voice of God when they commit(ted) these acts…”

    Well D’uh!!! Nobody follows the “voice of god” becuase, you know, god doesn’t exist. Where have ~you~ been?

  66. 67 JJ Thursday, May 20, 2010 at 9:59 am

    Paul J

    murderers and rapists weren’t following the voice of God when they commit(ted) these acts, so what do you think was their guide?

    Why, secular public schools, of course. Isn’t Rape & Murder 101 a mandatory course in “secular” schools?

    Look dude, I’m an atheist and somehow I manage to live by a moral code that includes no murder, no stealing, no rape and no pedophilia. You might want to proselytize to the Catholic church, they don’t seem to have gotten the last two straight yet.

  67. 68 Brian Thursday, May 20, 2010 at 11:38 am

    wow…

     

     

    As long as I’m here, let me make a little test…

    ….

    End of test. (Just wondering what that markup will create.)

  68. 69 Paul Jubenvill Tuesday, May 25, 2010 at 4:03 pm

    @joe agnost, the priesthood has changed (Hebrews 7:12)– our anointed King, Jesus of Nazareth, is the high priest at God’s right hand. God hates the man-made Roman priesthood whether sexual immorality is happening or not.

    @JJ, no… the public schools are not pro-moral. While the School Act in our province calls for inculcation of the “highest morality” (is there a guidebook for that?), there is nothing in the curriculum, other than informing teenagers about the abortion option. Individual teachers and principals have taught good things, but that’s not official.

    Curious, what is your “moral code”? And how does it somehow disallow pedophilia or rape? I’d like to know how you have any argument that there’s anything wrong with either of those. (Unless you’re holding a Bible, of course.)

  69. 70 JJ Tuesday, May 25, 2010 at 4:15 pm

    Paul

    Curious, what is your “moral code”? And how does it somehow disallow pedophilia or rape? I’d like to know how you have any argument that there’s anything wrong with either of those. (Unless you’re holding a Bible, of course.)

    😯

    Are you saying that you wouldn’t know those things were wrong unless you’d read it in the bible?? 😯

    I respectfully suggest you give your head a shake.

  70. 71 Reality.Bites Tuesday, May 25, 2010 at 5:01 pm

    But not at an airport. The rattling sound might alartm security.

    (I’m always helpful)

  71. 72 Paul Jubenvill Tuesday, May 25, 2010 at 5:10 pm

    @JJ, your conscience came from God– but you haven’t rationally/scientifically explained what is intuitive to you. remove God from the explanation (as you will), and let me know where your morals come from– that sense of right and wrong.

    having sex with young boys was okay in greece, because it was okay for that culture.

    i.e., do you have a sense of absolute morality, and (if so) where does it come from? plato? oprah winfrey?

  72. 73 J. A. Baker Tuesday, May 25, 2010 at 7:32 pm

    @JJ, your conscience came from God– but you haven’t rationally/scientifically explained what is intuitive to you. remove God from the explanation (as you will), and let me know where your morals come from– that sense of right and wrong.

    Since it obviously bears repeating again:

    If we did a good act merely from the love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? It is idle to say, as some do, that no such thing exists. We have the same evidence of the fact as of most of those we act on, to wit: their own affirmations, and their reasonings in support of them. … Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than love of God.

    – Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

    If an eighteenth-century slave-owner can figure out that belief in a deity is not a prerequisite for having a moral compass, then in the immortal words of Gunny Hartman, what is your major malfunction?

  73. 74 JJ Tuesday, May 25, 2010 at 9:39 pm

    Paul

    let me know where your morals come from– that sense of right and wrong.

    That’s easy: it comes from seeing Christians raping children, from which I deduce that since I’m an atheist, such things must be anathema to me.

  74. 75 Paul Jubenvill Tuesday, May 25, 2010 at 11:24 pm

    @JJ Christians are known by their words and actions. (i.e., i’m presuming that if i follow the link i’ll see rather the opposite of Christianity.)

    “How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn’t make it a leg.”
    Abraham Lincoln

    at any rate — you can’t answer a basic question about right versus wrong, and i see no sincerity in you regarding anything that matters. adios.

  75. 76 Paul Jubenvill Tuesday, May 25, 2010 at 11:30 pm

    @J. A. Baker

    you didn’t read what i said. i said JJ has a conscience, and it came from God.

    along these lines, we are breathing oxygen, and that comes from God.

    but if He does not exist, where would morality come from, and why would it matter?

    if you claim to discern right from wrong, then you suppose to have a moral/ethical code. if you have a moral code, then it must be based upon ideology. ideology seeks to answer the big questions in life (“where did we come from?” “do we have a purpose?”) as does religion.

    in short, if you presume to talk about what is right or wrong, then you are a religious person, and i’m trying to figure out what (any of) your religions are.

    i get the point that you hate God and Christianity (often conveniently confusing it with Roman Catholicism, as JJ did in the video link above). can you say something about yourself — what your foundations are — where your values come from ? i know a piece of snot exploded, and many mutations led to the happy accident that you are– all moral and stuff, not molesting children– but surely you can elaborate a bit.

  76. 77 JJ Tuesday, May 25, 2010 at 11:50 pm

    you can’t answer a basic question about right versus wrong,

    This, from someone who believes that nobody can know what’s right or wrong unless they read it somewhere.

    If you want serious answers, ask serious questions. “Where do you get your morality from” is not a serious question.

    I hate to tell you this, but morality predates the bible by millions of years. The people who wrote the bible got their ideas from what they observed around them, not the other way around.

    We *know* pedophilia is wrong because no animal that’s properly wired behaves that way towards its young. Cats don’t try to have sex with kittens, dogs don’t try to have sex with puppies. Humans are no different. Animals have a protective instinct towards their young that precludes sexual urges.

    We *know* rape is wrong because it’s aggression against another individual.

    It’s pretty simple, dude: wiring.

    As an aside, why is it you guys are so obsessed with sex? You didn’t ask me how I know it’s wrong to steal or kill people.

  77. 78 Paul Wednesday, May 26, 2010 at 12:25 am

    @JJ: You brought up the sexual stuff in your first reply to me, dated Wednesday, May 19, 2010 at 10:40 pm… check it ^^^ up there.

    Thank you for attempting to partly answer the question… you get your morality by looking at how animals behave? “They have a protective instinct toward their young.” Right… no abortion. But have you ever observed or read about how a male cat reproduces with a female? Rape. Ever seen an animal murder another, of same or different species?

    Fair enough, you only borrow “good” ideas from animals that are “properly wired.” But how do you know which behaviors indicate proper wiring? You’re still running in circles, completely incompetent to answer where your morality comes from.

    Again, please read carefully: I AM granting that you have a conscience (a sense of morality), and that it did not come from a book, but from the God who gave you a brain and fingers to type… we don’t use the Bible as evidence; rather, everything proves the Bible to be true. In this case, for example:

    Romans 1:19-25 “…what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
    For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
    Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.”

    Paul

  78. 79 joe agnost Wednesday, May 26, 2010 at 6:59 am

    Paul asked: “do you have a sense of absolute morality, and (if so) where does it come from? plato? oprah winfrey?”

    I don’t believe in “absolute” morality.

    Our sense of morals come to us from millions of years of evolution. It’s beneficial to our species to NOT kill our children – which is the reason why most human civilizations haven’t killed their children historically.

    The idea that you ~need~ a book (the bible as an example) to tell you right/wrong does NOT speak highly of ~you~. The implication being that if the bible didn’t exist you’d be all over rape and murder – the fun stuff that the bible needs to tell you NOT to engage in.

    And you claim the moral high ground? Because you need a 2000 year old book to get your morals? Nice.

    I submit that your version of morality is FAR inferior to mine – because mine are arrived at by understanding the world and making informed decisions, and yours comes bound in a 2000 year old book (which includes some rape and a LOT of murder!).

  79. 80 adopted Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 12:11 pm

    You didn’t need to read the Bible to discover that men murder and rape, did you? We don’t so much use the Bible to prove things; rather, everything around us and in us constantly proves that the Bible is true.

    For example: That you and I have some conscience, even without reading the Bible, is something that God gave to us as surely as He gave us a brain and a pair of hands. This innate conscience is discussed in Romans 1… I won’t use Romans 1 to prove anything to you… Rather, you just proved the truth in Romans 1 by pointing out that you have some clue that murdering your children is wrong, even though you deny and oppose the God who gave you the air you breathe and the bread you eat.

    I do not claim the moral high ground. That is Christ’s. (Here is just one reason we call His story, “good news.”)

    I will not brag of my “version of morality.” Indeed, it is “FAR inferior to” yours, as you boast above.

    I confess that “in my human flesh there is no good thing.” I do not trust my flesh, or “millions of years of evolution.” I trust in the Lord —

    I trust that One who you did not murder, did not rape; not with His hands, nor with His head (and I daresay, we are guilty of the latter, if not the former).

  80. 81 adopted Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 12:13 pm

    *who did not murder* <– grammar error above. We did murder Him.

  81. 82 joe agnost Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 12:23 pm

    adopted wrote: “everything around us and in us constantly proves that the Bible is true.”

    You really need to get out more. The bible is full to the brim with errors, contradictions and oddities… take a look at:

    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

    adopted wrote: “…He gave us a brain and a pair of hands.”

    We evolved from lower lifeforms… your imaginary friend had nothing to do with my brain, hands, anything!

  82. 83 Janus Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 12:46 pm

    “having sex with young boys was okay in greece, because it was okay for that culture.”

    You failed history, didn’t you?

    Adult men did not rape children freely in ancient Greece, as you incorrectly infer. Rape was just as much a crime then and there as it is here and now. It was the unwanted imposition of one’s will over another, and any citizen who was charged with rape was brought to trial.

    Sexual activity between young men was part of the culture, and it was not only consensual, it was considered the purest form of love. Love and sex between men and women was celebrated for the propagation of children, but the love of one man or boy for another was celebrated with song and dance.

  83. 84 Janus Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 12:56 pm

    “… you can’t answer a basic question about right versus wrong, and i see no sincerity in you regarding anything that matters…”

    But that’s because you can’t ask a basic question about “right” versus “wrong.”

    “… if you have a moral code, then it must be based upon ideology.”

    Why “must” it? You are assuming that everyone agrees with your basic premise, and that is wrong. That makes your entire “contribution” to this thread utterly irrelevant.

    “But have you ever observed or read about how a male cat reproduces with a female? Rape.”

    You flunked biology, too, eh? 😆

  84. 85 Paul Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 2:58 pm

    If you take delight in confinement to the measure of a man, then ask my classmates and professors how I fared in history and biology. But if you covet knowledge, then know that the wisdom of men is made foolish by the LORD, who formed us from the womb.

    You burned one half of a piece of wood to make fire and roast your meat. You made the other half your god — an abomination. It was all yours from the One who gives and who takes away, but you gave no thanks for the meat, and you kindled God’s jealousy with your adoration of the other half. Taught the hope you have in Jesus of Nazareth, you have thus far chosen shame instead.

    Shall I learn about the Bible from those who hate my Master? The living Word is overwhelming among those who house the Spirit. Then how dead amongst dead men!

    Our scholarly wisdom and philosophy is eaten with worms in our coffins with us. Where is Plato? Will you follow wise men to hell, that you may be counted wise for a few decades with your ‘higher lifeform’ friends who make jokes with you? Judgment is on us. Our ideas and idols cannot deliver us.

    Your deluded heart pants for death. You will not obey God, nor regard your own welfare. This is an ironic version of selfishness.

    We do not talk to you about the good news. You are hostile — you ignore your great need to the embarrassment of our species. You go beyond your ‘scientific’ head to utter blasphemies against the God you hate while calling Him ‘imaginary’ at the same time.

    God will not be reduced to philosophical or academic concepts, of which men have wrestled for millennia and proven to each other only to be fools and liars.

    These media are so weak to express the glory of God. Work beside me in person and witness the living miracles of the living God in the heart of a wretch like me.

    Begin the journey of wisdom by fearing God. Then you will beg for the tender caress of Gideon’s sword upon your flesh and the gentleness of Sampson’s hand shattering your bones, if this could somehow save you from the justice of the God of Jacob.

    How will you pretend that you did not notice Jesus of Nazareth? On that day, you will not find strength to straighten your ashen and trembling legs or open your charred lips to shout your lies.

    Turn from your madness — the Kingdom is at hand. Time for pleasing your friends is well past, and you have no more excuse for your ignorance. Bow down and honor God who is forever worthy.

  85. 86 Janus Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 4:28 pm

    OMG, JJ! The mushrooms are coming! The mushrooms are coming!

    😆 😆 😆

  86. 87 joe agnost Wednesday, June 2, 2010 at 5:33 am

    That was TOO funny! I wonder how long it took “paul” to come up with that load!


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