What we’ve suspected all along

Though under current conditions it’s unlikely that any legal culpability will ever be proven, it’s always been clear that the assassination of Dr. George Tiller one year ago today wasn’t exactly the act of a single demented nutjob.  Scott Roeder has a longstanding association with the farthest whacked out fringes of the anti-abortion movement, many of whom openly and unabashedly advocate violence against abortion providers or have proudly committed it themselves.   It’s a nest of cockroaches that only scatter when one of them actually kills someone.

Arguing against the “lone wolf” theory, Ms. Magazine uses a Venn diagram to show overlap between the wheels of the frenzied fascist machine in which Roeder was a just another greasy little cog:

The article makes some interesting points about Criminal Conspiracy law:

In international terrorism cases, in organized crime cases, even in drugtrafficking cases, conspiracy charges can be filed when two or more people enter into an agreement to commit an unlawful act. In fact, of the 159 people convicted of international terrorism by the U.S. since 9/11, more than 70 percent were sentenced for conspiracy (or for “harboring” terrorists). Once a person becomes a member of the conspiracy, she or he is held legally responsible for the acts of other members done in furtherance of the conspiracy, even if she or he is not present or aware that the acts are being committed.

The government does not have to prove that conspirators have entered into any formal agreement. Because they are trying to hide what they are doing, criminal conspirators rarely do such things as draw up contracts. Nor does the government have to show that the members of the conspiracy state between themselves what their object or purpose or methods are. Because they are clandestine, criminal conspirators rarely discuss their plans in a straightforward way. The government only has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the members of a conspiracy, in some implied way, came to mutually understand they would attempt to accomplish a common and unlawful plan.

If anti-abortion terrorism was prosecuted the same way as Islamic terrorism, Scott Roeder would likely have some company in the pen.   Until that happens, these networks of brainless scum have little to lose by encouraging anyone among them who might be so inclined to Get It On.

55 Responses to “What we’ve suspected all along”


  1. 1 Malrow Monday, May 31, 2010 at 3:32 pm

    You are too kind.

  2. 2 Jasper Monday, May 31, 2010 at 8:14 pm

    They should have found Scott Roeder guilty of voluntary manslaughter.

    Although one can use force as an absolute last resort to save the life of any human being threatened with death, this was clearly not a situation that met the stringent requirements for such an action. Someone in church is clearly not an immediate threat to anyone.

    However, he did kill, not an innocent person, but a dangerous criminal abortionist who had killed 60,000 children and would continue to kill for years more. The state and federal governments had done and would do nothing to stop this man from killing more children. Roeder did what he did, not for personal gain, but in an attempt to save the lives of unborn children.

    Therefore, although his action was not morally justified, there were serious mitigating circumstances and he should have been given a lesser charge and should be sentenced to much less than life in prison.

  3. 3 JJ Monday, May 31, 2010 at 9:06 pm

    Jasper

    not an innocent person, but a dangerous criminal abortionist

    Not according to the US Supreme Court.

    Abortion is a legal medical procedure. Your not agreeing with it doesn’t change that reality. Anything “criminal” is in your own mind.

    Therefore, although his action was not morally justified, there were serious mitigating circumstances and he should have been given a lesser charge and should be sentenced to much less than life in prison.

    That sounds an awful lot like “he reaped what he sowed”.

    What would be your reaction if Khalid Sheik Mohammed got a lesser sentence because of the mitigating circumstances Al Qaeda always blathers about: US military presence in the middle east, support for Israel, etc.

    would continue to kill for years more

    Dr.Tiller was planning to retire very soon.

  4. 4 Brian Monday, May 31, 2010 at 9:07 pm

    For Roeder to have received a lesser charge for the reasons you proposed, those reasons would have had to have been legally recognized as legitimate in the specific case.  Since the law in Kansas does not recognize the items you mentioned in the context you proposed them in, it would be an abrogation of the legal procedures of the state to charge him with anything but 1st degree murder.  I think he probably met the conditions for aggravated 1st degree murder as well, since the killing of Tiller was not just intended to end Tiller’s life, but was also utilitarian in nature, inasmuch as the goal was to affect an additional activity that Tiller was engaged in.

    It is the job of the legislature, not the judiciary, to establish the legality of the items you put forth; for the prosecutor or judge to do anything else would be judicial activism.  Further, I believe the Kansas Legislature is prevented from taking any such action by Roe v Wade.

  5. 5 Brian Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 12:50 am

    Well, I read this article, and frankly, I’m not all that impressed. The author, Amanda Robb, just seems to not actually say much of what it would appear she ought to say.

    She says, “But for loners, these guys have a lot of friends. A lot of the same ones, in fact.” But I would expect that, without further expecting that Roeder’s murderous bent indicated that those who knew him in these groups share his feelings. To be sure, some she describes did, but far fewer than the two sentences just quoted would imply.

    She says that Roeder met Eugene Frye, who, together with another antiabortion activist, had been arrested in 1990 for attempting to reinsert the feeding tube of a Missouri woman in a persistent vegetative state, but she doesn’t say what woman, nor does this act have bearing on the case of Roeder. One act was a non-violent intervention to try to save someone’s life (perhaps misguided — you can’t really say from Robb’s article), the other an act of murder. Fry had also been involved in blockading clinics, but that is an act of a different character than is murder.

    She points out, “Through Frye, Roeder says, he soon met Rachelle ‘Shelley’ Shannon. She, like Frye, had attended the Summer of Mercy protests; over the next 2 years she would commit 8 arson or acid attacks on abortion clinics in the Pacific Northwest.” But how many people attended this “Summer of Mercy” protest but never did anything of the sort. Are Frye and Shannon the only 2 who were at that event and who went on to perpetrate violence (if Frye even did)?

    Robb says “Roeder says Frye took him to visit Shannon where she was incarcerated in Topeka,” and then she says the Roeder visited her repeatedly without Frye. Perhaps he was not so involved after all, eh? (But maybe he was; I mean, Robb just leaves that hanging.)

    I did notice that one person, James Kopp, was responsible for for 1 murder, and possibly 4 additional acts of violence — that authorities are aware of. That’s a pretty good share of the abortion clinic/provider violence in just one person.

    Robb writes, “James Kopp first met Bray in 1983 at an extremist religious retreat in Switzerland…” What extremist religious retreat?!? What religion? Extremist in what way? Inquiring minds want to know! All we have is Robb’s word for the fact that it was extremist.

    I, of course, could go on. I will say just one more thing.

    Robb writes:

    In his [Troy Newman’s] writings, though—his book, Their Blood Cries Out, still for sale on the Operation Rescue website—he talks about the bloodguilt of those who condone abortion. The biblical atonement for bloodguilt is death.

    I looked in the KJV. The word bloodguilt is used twice, and neither time says that death is required for its atonement.

    I looked also in the NASB, the NIV, the NRSV & the NKJV. None of these versions say that bloodguilt requires death for atonement.

    Context in all the passages where that word is used makes it clear that “bloodguilt” is the term (where it is used) indicating “guilty of murder,” differentiating from justifiable or accidental homicide.

    The Bible throughout says that the penalty for sin — all sin — is death (not meaning physical death), and murder is no different. But the Bible also makes it clear that that is NOT atonement, but penalty. The atonement for sin is trusting in God. In the Old Testament we read that “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Individuals cannot atone for their own sins. I bring this up not to preach, but to show how far off the mark Amanda Robb was on this point that I do know the background of, and that makes me suspicious that she plays as loosely with the rest of the facts in her article.

    She has an uncle, whom she knew well, the abortion provider who was murdered by James Kopp in upstate New York. She says she “was especially close” to him. That sound like something that would strain anyone’s objectivity. there is a disclosure at the end of the article saying “Investigative support and research for this article were provided by the Feminist Majority Foundation’s National Clinic Access Project.” I would imagine that this is an organization that is purely seething with anger at all who oppose elective abortion. This seems to me like an additional strong influence that would work against an article like this really telling it like it is. There is strong desire in some circles wanting to use this murder as an effective event to further their agenda, and I would expect The Feminist Majority Foundation to be in that position.

    Anyway, after this article, I felt I had eaten a large Chinese dinner. I ate, and ate, and ate, but quickly found I felt like I hadn’t eaten anything.

    Alright, off to bed for me.

  6. 6 Jasper Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 2:28 am

    “Not according to the US Supreme Court.

    Abortion is a legal medical procedure. Your not agreeing with it doesn’t change that reality. Anything “criminal” is in your own mind.”

    The Holocaust did not violate either German national law or international law. German courts carefully stripped victims of all legal rights prior to the Final Solution. By 1941, when the death camp system began operation, the Jews had no rights. The Reich could legally treat them as it wished.

    “What would be your reaction if Khalid Sheik Mohammed got a lesser sentence because of the mitigating circumstances Al Qaeda always blathers about: US military presence in the middle east, support for Israel, etc.”

    Very poor comparison JJ, the US did not murder 60,000 innocent muslims, you should be ashamed of yourself. The US has fought three wars on behalf of muslims. In the Gulf War, the US responded to Saddam’s invasion of its Kuwaiti allies with armed force. In Yugoslavia, the US intervened on behalf of Kosovar Albanian Muslims. In Afghanistan and Iraq, the US overthrew Muslim dictatorships and tried to stabilize the two countries.

    George Tiller murdered 60,000 babies. This evidence is not allowed in a US court of ‘law’. See, the pro-abortion argument is based on lies, Roe v. Wade was a lie, Norma McCorvey never sought an abortion, she was used.

  7. 7 Reality.Bites Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 3:06 am

    Honestly, JJ – what is this sick freak terrorist apologist doing back here?

  8. 8 Cornelius T. Zen Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 7:00 am

    Good morrow, all!
    Jasper: “George Tiller murdered 60,000 babies.”
    Interesting. Most interesting.
    If George Tiller had performed one abortion a day, for 365 days of each year, he would have had to have been practising for 164 years. Let’s say he took one day a week off: that would be 313 working days each year.
    Let’s say he had been practising since 1973. That would have been 36 years. Times 313 working days per year, that makes it 11,268 working days. Divide that into 60,000, and we get about 5 abortions a day, every working day, for 36 years of providing that service.
    Really. Jasper, tell the rest of us, please, how in the name of the Almighty, Vengeful God you worship with such fire and brimstone in your wizened soul, did you manage to get 60,000 confidential medical records? After all, abortion is a medical procedure, carried out by state certified doctors, and all these procedures require records of such, and, as medical records are required by law to be, are confidential to doctor and patient only. Possessing such records, when you are neither the doctor nor the patient, IS A CRIME!
    Figures cannot lie, but liars can figure.
    Good night, and may your God go with you – CTZen

  9. 9 hemmingforddogblog Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 7:09 am

    Jasper:
    Wouldn’t you be more comfortable over at SUZY ALLCAPS? She also compares abortion to the holocaust. I believe you are two kindred souls…

  10. 10 Frank Frink Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 7:09 am

    I felt I had eaten a large Chinese dinner. I ate, and ate, and ate, but quickly found I felt like I hadn’t eaten anything.

    Such a hoary old cliche.

    Either find yourself a better supplier of ‘American-Chinese’ food or try eating real Chinese food.

    JJ, as much as I know you like a variety of voices and opinions UOH has become very much the ‘B & J Traveling Roadshow’. I would think that, since both have so much to say, they should start their own blog(s).

  11. 11 Brian Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 9:46 am

    CTZen,

    I was suspicious of this number, too — it seemed excessive. But 1 abortion a day seems an unrealistically small number. I am sure it is in excess of 4 a day. I suspect it was more than 1 per hour. Not all of these would have been late term, but still, abortions nonetheless.

    I read years ago the kind of money an abortionist can make, and more than 10 years ago it was more than $700/Hr.

  12. 12 Brian Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 9:51 am

    CTZen,

    You said “[H]ow … did you … get 60,000 confidential medical records? … [A]bortion is a medical procedure … and all these procedures require records … and, as medical records are … are confidential …”

    The number and the type of medical procedures executed by a facility is not confidential. I would think that for corporations these would even be a matter of public record even. No patient’s confidentiality rights are violated for people to know what the business has done as a business, as long as names are not put to that info.

  13. 13 Brian Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 9:53 am

    Frank, if you can suggest some selections, I am always willing to try new culinary treats. Perhaps some recipes that can be found online.

  14. 14 joe agnost Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 9:59 am

    Brian wrote: “I am sure it is in excess of 4 a day.”

    Every day… for 36 years? Not even close…

    And: “I suspect it was more than 1 per hour.”

    More than 1 an hour? Every day? For 36 years?? You’re talking crazy talk here… that’s not even close to resonable…

    And: “Not all of these would have been late term”

    “Not all”??? Try almost NONE of them… Late term abortions are very rare and almost always involve complications to a pregnancy that was wanted.

    That post didn’t look like the reasonable “brian” who normally posts here… Is that you Jasper?? 😉

  15. 15 Frank Frink Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 11:03 am

    Brian, Teh Google is your friend.

  16. 16 JJ Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 12:17 pm

    FF

    JJ, as much as I know you like a variety of voices and opinions UOH has become very much the ‘B & J Traveling Roadshow’…

    I suspect this is because they enjoy debating issues with people who think differently than they do — or at least Brian does, I’m not sure what Jasper’s agenda is — and there are few “progressive” blogs that allow it.

    Also they’re the only regular conservative commenters, so if they seem to pop up a lot, it’s because the task of presenting contrarian views has fallen to them alone – a heavy load for an army of two 😉

    I would think that, since both have so much to say, they should start their own blog(s)

    Jasper is already involved with another blog (as a moderator at Jill Stanek’s) and Brian seems to be more interested in debate than just venting.

    And so it goes…

  17. 17 JJ Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 12:33 pm

    Jasper

    the US did not murder 60,000 innocent muslims

    Sorry, you’re right: I left out a zero (that’s in the Iraq war alone, only up to 3 years ago, more if you include those that died during the 90s because of sanctions on Iraq. And never mind Palestine.).

    At any rate, I’m not defending this rationale — I’m just saying that this is how AQ justifies terrorism, and it’s just as wrong.

  18. 18 JJ Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 12:35 pm

    SQ – Jasper already hangs out with the Ultimate Fetus Fetishist, Jill Stanek. SUZANNE is small potatoes 😯

  19. 19 JJ Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 12:38 pm

    RB

    Honestly, JJ – what is this sick freak terrorist apologist doing back here?

    I know he was banned awhile back, so I was a little surprised he got in again. But I decided to see if he could behave himself… unfortunately there are some people it’s impossible to have a rational discussion with.

  20. 20 JJ Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 12:43 pm

    CTZen – That has always been the number that’s been tossed around by the antis, and it’s always seemed utterly absurd. Especially given that some of the procedures would have been late term, and they take a long time to complete.

    Even a doctor on speed going full bore and doing only quick & easy early term procedures couldn’t do 60,000 in that time. They don’t just stand at an operating table with a scoop and go at it, there’s consultation, follow up, etc.

  21. 21 Jasper Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 12:50 pm

    Brian, Cornelious,

    Listen to Tiller in his own words… ~60,000

    .dr-tiller.com/biography.htm

  22. 22 Jasper Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 1:07 pm

    “”Sorry, you’re right: I left out a zero (that’s in the Iraq war alone, only up to 3 years ago, more if you include those that died during the 90s because of sanctions on Iraq. And never mind Palestine.).”

    JJ,

    Are you saying US troop murdered 650,000 Iraqies? You may want to do a little more research on that.

  23. 23 Reality.Bites Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 1:50 pm

    Clinic opened in 1976, so 33 years in operation. Let’s say 235 open days per year, based on 5 days a week for 47 weeks.

    7755 open days over 33 years, so 60,000 abortions would average to 8 per day. I would assume the overwhelming majority were routine, 1st trimester abortions that wouldn’t take very long.

    I’m not quite sure what’s being disputed here. I’d expect most doctors performing a short outpatient proceduce to do about 8 per day.

  24. 24 Reality.Bites Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 2:01 pm

    JJ, I wanted to add that my only experience with private medicine was for Lasik surgery. Consultation, prep, follow-up, etc. was done with clinic staff – qualified staff, but not the surgeon who performed the procedure.

    I don’t care HOW many abortions Dr. Tiller performed, because there’s nothing wrong with performing abortions. The guy who did my Lasik mentions on his web site that he’s done 50,000 of them, and in a much shorter period of time.

    Murder, on the other hand, Jasper is just fine with, as long as he gets to decide who gets murdered.

  25. 25 JJ Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 3:03 pm

    RB

    I’m not quite sure what’s being disputed here. I’d expect most doctors performing a short outpatient proceduce to do about 8 per day.

    I think the dispute is whether this number is legit or whether it’s just another made-up anti-abortion lie, given that the nature of the procedures he performed was more complex than the average abortion. But it’s basically a non-issue and a rhetorical trap anti choicers use, that I still walk right into on occasion. Because as you say, and I totally agree…

    I don’t care HOW many abortions Dr. Tiller performed, because there’s nothing wrong with performing abortions.

    Exactly — I don’t care if he performed 60,000 of the things a year. So what? It was his job. Nothing wrong with being good at it.

  26. 26 Brian Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 3:04 pm

    Sorry, you’re right: I left out a zero…

    Ali Dabbagh, an Iraqi government spokesman, said in a statement that the report you cited “gives exaggerated figures that contradict the simplest rules of accuracy and investigation.” And really, it seems about 20 to 1. The Vietnam conflict only resulted in some 50,000 US troops dieing. 600,000 seems to be a fantastic number to me, even if 30,000 is low.

    Also, the article starts with “War has wiped out about 655,000 Iraqis.” But how many of those were members of terrorist organizations (that is, those individuals we are engaging in combat), and how many were Iraqi soldiers we were engaged in battle with?

    The article actually states that the researchers did not ask whether the dead in question were civilians or military. That seems unbelievable to me. I mean, why not?!?

    Then the article points out “It has been very difficult to pin down fatality numbers during the Iraq conflict.  The private British-based Iraq Body Count research group puts the number of civilian deaths at between 43,850 & 48,693.”

    At any rate, it is always hard to get valid data where propaganda is so central to the mission as a weapon.  Remember the film that shows Israeli troops gunning down a Palestinian boy that turned out to be a fake generated as a weapon against Israel?  It was very effective, and continues to work against Israel to this day, though it has been shown to be a fake.

  27. 27 JJ Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 3:09 pm

    Jasper – Don’t link to anti-Tiller sites here, if you don’t mind.

  28. 28 Jasper Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 3:09 pm

    “I think the dispute is whether this number is legit or whether it’s just another made-up anti-abortion lie”

    I gave you audio of Tiller’s own voice saying he commited 60,000 killin’s, what else do you need?

  29. 29 Brian Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 3:13 pm

    More than 1 / hour? Every day? For 36 years?? You’re talking crazy talk here… that’s not even close to resonable…

    And: “Not all of these would have been late term”

    “Not all”??? Try almost NONE of them… Late term abortions are very rare…

    Even though the qualification “almost none” is within the set “not all,” I think Jasper wins this round. Tiller said, “As far as abortion services are concerned I have performed over 60,000 terminations of pregnancy, and our area of expertise & major interest is in late termination of pregnancy.” I’m willing to take Tiller at his word. Implausible as the number might seem in trying to believe it, it is apparently accurate.

  30. 30 JJ Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 3:18 pm

    Jasper – Okay you win. That makes you 1 for 2million. Most of the abortions he did must have been early term ones, which proves that all the anti-abortion propaganda pictures showing 20+ week fetuses are just a load of crap.

    Anyway, who cares how many abortions Dr.Tiller performed? It was his job. It’s a non-issue IMO.

  31. 31 Jasper Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    “Jasper – Don’t link to anti-Tiller sites here, if you don’t mind.”

    Hey JJ,

    thanks for breaking the link so people can’t hear the audio. I’ll try to be more sensitive next time and not feed you so much truth.

  32. 32 Brian Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 3:42 pm

    Jasper, don’t be snippy.  This is her house, and if she doesn’t want you to smoke social graces dictate that you don’t light up.  (That was metaphor, BTW.)

    Plus, having described yourself as a Christian, those who aren’t are watching your every move.  You should not provide grist for their mill of saying to others or thinking to themselves, “This is how those people who call themselves Christians act …”  You should make your point with all the grace you can muster, for the sake of Christ.

  33. 33 JJ Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 3:52 pm

    Jasper – We don’t need a link to a virulently hateful and obsessive anti-Tiller site to prove any points. Any links to such hate sites will be broken, so don’t even think about it.

    We get it. I said “You win”. I also said “Who cares”.

  34. 34 JJ Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 4:01 pm

    Brian

    Implausible as the number might seem in trying to believe it, it is apparently accurate.

    Agreed. But I would echo what RB said above — so what? It only suggests that he did a lot more early term procedures than the late ones the anti-abortion propaganda would have people believe.

    In any event, it’s pretty irrelevant since it’s between patient and doctor.

  35. 35 Brian Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 4:07 pm

    I do agree, in general. More of a bad thing always makes it sadder, of course, but it doesn’t make it wrong anymore than less of it would make it right.  If only one stepfather sexually molested his stepson, it would still be wrong, natcherly.

  36. 36 Jasper Tuesday, June 1, 2010 at 4:18 pm

    “You should make your point with all the grace you can muster, for the sake of Christ.”

    I agree Brian, I’ll try better.

  37. 37 Reality.Bites Wednesday, June 2, 2010 at 2:43 am

    It stands to reason that most abortions there would have been ordinary ones. The clinic had to sustain itself financially, paying salaries to all the employees. It would be like a cardiologist performing only heart transplants.

  38. 38 harpervalley Wednesday, June 2, 2010 at 10:57 am

    holy comments! nice piece, jj….rule of law is reserved for the government du jour, it seems.

  39. 39 Brian Wednesday, June 2, 2010 at 11:11 am

    It stands to reason that most abortions there would have been ordinary ones.

    It does stand to reason — I agree.

    And reason is all you have to rely on when there is no other evidence — but don’t take that to mean that I am denigrating reasoning one’s way through things, because I am not.

    However, it does not seem to stand up to the evidence, which is Dr. Till himself saying, “… our area of expertise & major interest is in late termination of pregnancy…”

    I don’t of course, know what numbers to hang on that quote of his, but it seems to be in opposition to “…most abortions there would have been ordinary ones.”

    I suppose– that is, it stands to reason, that if a clinic gets a reputation for having expertise in late term terminations, the clientele coming in the door would have a higher proportionality of late term pregnancies than a clinic that does not have that renown.

  40. 40 joe agnost Wednesday, June 2, 2010 at 11:19 am

    The problem, Brian, is that most abortions ARE pre-20 weeks.

    It’s a very rare case that a woman would seek an abortion past that and it almost always involves a medical necessity.

  41. 41 Brian Wednesday, June 2, 2010 at 11:55 am

    I think you’re right, Joe, that the majority are earlier, rather than later.

    But I believe you are mistaken about the medical necessity with respect to when abortions are sought.

    It becomes apparent pretty early on if the pregnancy a threat, if it is ectopic, for instance.  It is pretty rare for some medical issue to crop up late in the pregnancy — it’s not that it never happens, it just does not play the role you indicate.

    But it’s just like the quantity issue.  If abortions are not a bad thing early in the pregnancy, then they’re not a bad thing late in the pregnancy.  If abortion is infanticide, then the point along the progress of the pregnancy where it takes place matters little.

  42. 42 joe agnost Wednesday, June 2, 2010 at 12:06 pm

    Brian wrote: “It is pretty rare for some medical issue to crop up late in the pregnancy”

    I think this is not close to true. I think late complications happen all the time – some to the point of requiring an abortion (although ~that~ level of complication ~is~ likely rare).

    No woman wants to undergo an abortion. Nobody claims it’s as easy as pie – some women struggle afterwards for instance. It’s always a last resort and often desperate. It gets much more invasive the longer the pregnancy is allowed to persist. Late abortions are much more hard on the woman than early ones. This is why late ones are rare and often a medical necessity – otherwise the women would have had the abortion much sooner!

  43. 43 Reality.Bites Wednesday, June 2, 2010 at 12:35 pm

    I would say it always involves a medical necessity. In Kansas, two other doctors need to certify the necessity. They aren’t easy to perform, they’re prone to complications, and they are riskier. Doctors aren’t going to do them for fun or profit.

  44. 44 Brian Wednesday, June 2, 2010 at 12:43 pm

    It’s always a last resort and often desperate.

    Though it is sometimes an act of desperation, it is not “always a last resort.”  Some women, when putting their baby up for adoption is suggested respond with “I’m not going to let some stranger raise MY baby!”, and they choose abortion instead.  Before you all get out your flamethrowers, please recognize that if even one woman said something like that it would negate the charge that it is always a last resort.

     

    Late abortions are much more hard on the woman than early ones…

    True enough.  But if you’re there, what are you gonna do?    Back up time?

     

    …and often a medical necessity.

    This is propaganda, an agenda point invented to cast anyone who would oppose such a thing in a certain light.  In fact, though there might be the odd case here or there, late term abortions are virtually never a necessity, and are nothing like often a medical necessity.

      

    … otherwise the women would have had the abortion much sooner!

    In some cases, maybe.    But sometimes women (girls, in some cases) wind up pregnant due to irresponsibility.  Some within that population (however large or small) will be further irresponsible enough to wait too long to have an earlier abortion.  When I worked as a line cook, there was a girl who bussed tables.  Talking to her one day, she told me that her best friend was pregnant.  I asked “What’s she gonna do?”  The bus girl said, — and I’m not making this up; I was gobsmacked! — “Nothing.  She says she is just not going to allow it to grow; it’s just not going to happen,” a case, of course, of complete and total denial.  Do you think this girl might wind up a later-term abortion case with no medical complications (other than being a moron) involved?

  45. 45 Jasper Wednesday, June 2, 2010 at 1:13 pm

    “We have some experience with late terminations: about 10,000 patients between 24 and 36 weeks and something like 800 fetal anomalies between 26 and 36 weeks in the past 5 years.”

    ~George Tiller

    10,000-800= 9200 heathly babies…not that it matters, abortion is never necessary.

  46. 46 Brian Wednesday, June 2, 2010 at 1:27 pm

    Thought I might poke around a little:

    In 1987, the Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI), an affiliate of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America (PPFA), collected questionnaires from 1,900 women who were at abortion clinics procuring abortions. Of the 1,900, “420 had been pregnant for 16 or more weeks.” [22%] These 420 women were asked to choose among a menu of reasons why they hadn’t obtained the abortions earlier in their pregnancies.  Only 2% said “a fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy,” compared to 71% who responded “did not recognize that she was pregnant or misjudged gestation,” 48% who said “found it hard to make arrangements,” and 33% who said “was afraid to tell her partner or parents.”  The report did not indicate that any of the 420 late abortions were performed because of maternal health problems [Emph. added]. [“Why Do Women Have Abortions?,” Family Planning Perspectives, July/August 1988.]

     

     

    In her article about late-term abortions, based in part on extensive interviews with Dr. McMahon and on direct observation of his practice (Los Angeles Times Magazine, Jan. 7, 1990), reporter Karen Tumulty concluded:

        If there is any other single factor that inflates the number
        of late abortions, it is youth.  Often, teen-agers do not
        recognize the first signs of pregnancy.  Just as frequently,
        they put off telling anyone as long as they can.
    [Emph. added]

    According to Peggy Jarman, spokeswoman for Dr. George Tiller, who specializes in late-term abortions in Wichita, Kansas:

        About ¾ of Tiller’s late-term patients, Jarman said,
        are teen-agers who’ve denied to themselves or their
        families they were pregnant until it was too late to
        hide it. [Kansas City Star]

     

    From what I have seen and heard for years, it is my opinion that the constantly repeated points that late term abortions are rare, and almost always medically necessary are invented points, created out of thin air by activists.

  47. 47 Brian Wednesday, June 2, 2010 at 1:28 pm

    Format correction:

    Thought I might poke around a little:

    In 1987, the Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI), an affiliate of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America (PPFA), collected questionnaires from 1,900 women who were at abortion clinics procuring abortions. Of the 1,900, “420 had been pregnant for 16 or more weeks.” [22%] These 420 women were asked to choose among a menu of reasons why they hadn’t obtained the abortions earlier in their pregnancies.  Only 2% said “a fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy,” compared to 71% who responded “did not recognize that she was pregnant or misjudged gestation,” 48% who said “found it hard to make arrangements,” and 33% who said “was afraid to tell her partner or parents.”  The report did not indicate that any of the 420 late abortions were performed because of maternal health problems [Emph. added]. [“Why Do Women Have Abortions?,” Family Planning Perspectives, July/August 1988.]

     

     

    In her article about late-term abortions, based in part on extensive interviews with Dr. McMahon and on direct observation of his practice (Los Angeles Times Magazine, Jan. 7, 1990), reporter Karen Tumulty concluded:

        If there is any other single factor that inflates the number
        of late abortions, it is youth.  Often, teen-agers do not
        recognize the first signs of pregnancy.  Just as frequently,
        they put off telling anyone as long as they can.
    [Emph. added]

    According to Peggy Jarman, spokeswoman for Dr. George Tiller, who specializes in late-term abortions in Wichita, Kansas:

        About ¾ of Tiller’s late-term patients, Jarman said,
        are teen-agers who’ve denied to themselves or their
        families they were pregnant until it was too late to
        hide it. [Kansas City Star]

     

    From what I have seen and heard for years, it is my opinion that the constantly repeated points that late term abortions are rare, and almost always medically necessary are invented points, created out of thin air by activists.

  48. 48 Janus Wednesday, June 2, 2010 at 1:49 pm

    “…not that it matters, abortion is never necessary.”

    Jasper, whether or not you think it’s necessary is not the issue.

    Does the woman want to be pregnant or does she not? That’s the only relevant question.

  49. 49 Brian Wednesday, June 2, 2010 at 2:11 pm

    Janus,

        What is this avatar you have?  I recognize and understand the red-circle-with-a-slash over the coat hanger, but what does the rest represent (the 3 dots, the 3 rays & the 3-layer circle)?

  50. 50 Jasper Wednesday, June 2, 2010 at 2:30 pm

    “Does the woman want to be pregnant or does she not? That’s the only relevant question.”

    You ask that question before getting pregnant, not after.

  51. 51 JJ Wednesday, June 2, 2010 at 9:12 pm

    Brian – 16 weeks isn’t considered late term. Late term is anything past viability, which would be at least 22 weeks.

    Unfortunately, in many states women have to jump through so many hoops before they can finally get the procedure done that by the time they get it they might be another 4 or 5 weeks along, thanks to so called “pro-lifers” and their interference.

    Not so up here in Canada. We have drive-through abortion clinics up here 8)

  52. 52 Frank Frink Thursday, June 3, 2010 at 9:41 am

    “Does the woman want to be pregnant or does she not? That’s the only relevant question.”

    You ask that question before getting pregnant, not after.

    Why not just come out and say what you mean, Jasper? i.e. “keep your legs together, slut”

    Not that we didn’t know what you meant.

  53. 53 Janus Thursday, June 3, 2010 at 10:11 am

    “What is this avatar you have?”

    It’s called Awen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awen

  54. 54 Janus Thursday, June 3, 2010 at 10:13 am

    “You ask that question before getting pregnant, not after.”

    A woman asks it any time she thinks of it. You don’t get to ask at all.


  1. 1 JABbering Stooge :: “Lone wolf,” my ass! :: May :: 2010 Trackback on Monday, May 31, 2010 at 8:39 pm

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